Tugreofia Smith, VP of Operations at A&T Ascension Consulting (ATAC), a Virtual Staffing Company

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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's podcast, the number one podcast for entrepreneurs by
[00:06] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs. Hi, welcome to Canada's podcast. I'm your host, Celine Williams, and
[00:11] SPEAKER_00: today I'm here with Tugs Smith, who is the vice president of Operations at A and
[00:17] SPEAKER_00: T Ascension Consulting, ATAC, a virtual staffing company she co-founded with her
[00:22] SPEAKER_00: husband, Adrian, where she manages hundreds of remote workers across North America.
[00:27] SPEAKER_00: Having successfully led virtual teams for over 10 years, she is passionate about
[00:32] SPEAKER_00: the opportunities that remote work provides to individuals, rural communities,
[00:37] SPEAKER_00: and evolving businesses. As a mother, five children Tugs fully appreciates the
[00:41] SPEAKER_00: challenge of balancing work and family. Thank you for joining us today.
[00:46] SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for having me. It is a pleasure. I'm first of all five children,
[00:51] SPEAKER_00: that's impressive. I don't even know how you balance work and family, so I
[00:56] SPEAKER_00: definitely want to hear about that. But before we get into that, I do, I'd love to
[01:00] SPEAKER_00: hear a little bit about your journey as an entrepreneur. I think that the fact that
[01:04] SPEAKER_00: you run a business with your husband is an interesting story in and of
[01:09] SPEAKER_00: itself, a little of how you got to this point. Okay, well, as a young girl growing up,
[01:16] SPEAKER_01: my mom, my mom, my grandma, when my first examples of entrepreneurship, my grandma ran
[01:22] SPEAKER_01: restaurants, small stores. I'm originally from Jamaica. My mom sold things in
[01:27] SPEAKER_01: the markets. She would go to other islands and do buying and selling, things like
[01:31] SPEAKER_01: that. So it was a natural journey for me, but it wasn't automatic. When I left
[01:37] SPEAKER_01: school, I went into corporate Canada. I gathered a lot of experience. I met a
[01:42] SPEAKER_01: lot of mentors and then approximately 10 years ago, my husband and I were
[01:47] SPEAKER_01: working from home with another company and we said, you know what, hold on, let's
[01:52] SPEAKER_01: try to do this. Or he said, let's try to do this. And I said, no, because I was
[01:56] SPEAKER_01: eight months pregnant at the time. And that's not the time to start a business.
[02:02] SPEAKER_01: But we did it. We jumped in head first. We learned a lot. We made a lot of
[02:08] SPEAKER_01: mistakes. And that brought us to where we are right now. And at that time,
[02:13] SPEAKER_01: working from home was a crazy phenomenon. Like working from home. How can
[02:18] SPEAKER_01: people work from home? No one understood it. It wasn't like right now in this
[02:22] SPEAKER_01: dealing with a pandemic where everyone is from home. So we have to fight
[02:26] SPEAKER_01: through those challenges and also ensuring that people understood that our
[02:30] SPEAKER_01: industry is legitimate. What we do is legitimate. So that's how my entrepreneurial
[02:36] SPEAKER_00: journey started. So I appreciate what you're saying about working from home
[02:42] SPEAKER_00: because I, my first experience working from home was on a remote team, which
[02:48] SPEAKER_00: we called telecommuting. Yes. And it was 18 years ago now. And my team was
[02:57] SPEAKER_00: all over the place in Canada. And we telecommuted. And it was, we did not, I
[03:03] SPEAKER_00: talked about this a lot, but the technology we have now is a God sent
[03:07] SPEAKER_00: compared to what we were doing back then. I know. I know. So I'm curious what you
[03:15] SPEAKER_00: have seen change inside of remote work. And from your experience, because you've
[03:20] SPEAKER_00: done it a long time and you run a company that operates in that capacity.
[03:25] SPEAKER_00: And then what lessons you've learned from being, you know, from being a remote
[03:32] SPEAKER_00: worker as long as you've been, because things have changed dramatically. In terms
[03:36] SPEAKER_01: of technology, there have been so many great software companies and technology
[03:43] SPEAKER_01: companies that have just come along and just evolved everything, bringing things
[03:47] SPEAKER_01: into the cloud as simple as that is that just makes it possible for people to
[03:52] SPEAKER_01: telecommute and work from anywhere. So the technology just, you get used to
[03:59] SPEAKER_01: something today. Tomorrow, there's something you were in better. So all these
[04:03] SPEAKER_01: great minds. It's like a great challenge for folks that are working in technology.
[04:08] SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate that. One lesson that I've learned and we learned
[04:12] SPEAKER_01: actually early on in working from home is the morale of your team matters. It's
[04:20] SPEAKER_01: not like an office where you can run around and have a contest because our folks
[04:24] SPEAKER_01: do customer service and sales. The morale of your team matters when my husband
[04:29] SPEAKER_01: and I first started working from home because we're a little outside of Toronto.
[04:33] SPEAKER_01: And we would be spending hours on the highway for one after picking kids up
[04:37] SPEAKER_01: from daycare. We said, we took a good look at our quality of life. This is not the
[04:42] SPEAKER_01: quality of life that we want. We want something more. So that drove us to
[04:47] SPEAKER_01: working from home, doing other things like that and then eventually starting our
[04:50] SPEAKER_01: business. But when we first started working from home, I myself, I felt so
[04:55] SPEAKER_01: lonely. I was coming from a corporate call center environment where there's
[04:59] SPEAKER_01: folks always around. There's someone over at the next desk, the next cubicle.
[05:03] SPEAKER_01: You can socialize. There was none of that. And the environment that I was working
[05:08] SPEAKER_01: in, it was very, we were all separated. It was all, you were all in your own
[05:12] SPEAKER_01: silo. You were, there was no communication. There was no morale building.
[05:17] SPEAKER_01: And when we started ATAC, our number one goal was to make sure that we always
[05:23] SPEAKER_01: maintain morale. We always focus on everyone's mental health. Check in. We do
[05:29] SPEAKER_01: contests for folks to post pictures of themselves doing their hobby. Just
[05:34] SPEAKER_01: simple things like that to bring the team in. So working from home, most
[05:38] SPEAKER_01: important thing, morale matters because people matter. If your people are not
[05:42] SPEAKER_01: happy, it's going to affect the productivity. Your company's not going to be
[05:45] SPEAKER_01: successful. So you have to invest in your number one thing, which is your
[05:48] SPEAKER_00: people. You are speaking my language. I am 100% on board with that. I talk, I do a
[05:55] SPEAKER_00: lot of working culture and I talk to organizations about culture and during
[05:59] SPEAKER_00: this pandemic, you know, working remotely and maintaining that culture that
[06:03] SPEAKER_00: morale to what you're talking about has been a challenge. Do you have any
[06:09] SPEAKER_00: ways that you have found, you know, I know you mentioned like contests and
[06:14] SPEAKER_00: posting pictures, but are there any sort of consistent things that you have
[06:17] SPEAKER_00: found outside of those one offs that help to maintain it in an ongoing manner
[06:24] SPEAKER_00: when people are working from home and especially right now where a lot of
[06:29] SPEAKER_00: people are working from home, not by choice? Well, early on, we would try to have
[06:35] SPEAKER_01: team huddles and team meetings and get everyone into an online webinar
[06:40] SPEAKER_01: setting and online meeting, similar to this. But we're working with folks that
[06:45] SPEAKER_01: are all across the country, different time zones. Sometimes we wouldn't get as
[06:50] SPEAKER_01: much attendance as we wanted. So I started in about 2019 or the late end of 2018
[06:56] SPEAKER_01: recording videos, just a simple message to the team. We were rolling something
[07:01] SPEAKER_01: new out or if we just wanted to say hi, ATACs here. Remember that you can come
[07:07] SPEAKER_01: in. We have a sort of online water cooler where we have everyone come in and
[07:11] SPEAKER_01: chat and post pictures. So I do a lot of video because emails they get redundant
[07:16] SPEAKER_01: and people can avoid them and who wants to constantly be getting bombarded by
[07:22] SPEAKER_01: emails. So I try my hardest. I do a lot of videos to my team so they can see
[07:26] SPEAKER_01: me. They can they can hear the passion in my voice. They can hear and
[07:31] SPEAKER_01: understand they don't have to try to interpret from my words. Some people
[07:35] SPEAKER_01: will see your tone and understand it. Other people will be like, oh, she's just
[07:38] SPEAKER_01: trying to be pushing. So do a lot of videos. And then in terms of our online
[07:43] SPEAKER_01: water cooler system, as we call it, we use an internal chat system. We have
[07:48] SPEAKER_01: different teams, depending on a lot of programming or working on it, what
[07:51] SPEAKER_01: department you're in. But then we just have one large room where, as I said, we
[07:56] SPEAKER_01: run contests. The other day we asked everybody, what's your favorite movie? Oh,
[07:59] SPEAKER_01: it's the last movie you've seen. And the chat room was just a buzz because
[08:04] SPEAKER_01: people could just be themselves. They could just be comfortable. People were
[08:07] SPEAKER_01: posting pictures of their kids having movie night things like that. And that
[08:12] SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed that. And I feel those are those are the things that help to
[08:16] SPEAKER_01: build corporate culture.
[08:18] SPEAKER_00: I think that's I think that's really helpful. Thank you for sharing some of
[08:21] SPEAKER_00: those. I think it's always in my opinion, when I get a chance to talk to
[08:25] SPEAKER_00: someone who actually has the experience with running remote teams and what
[08:30] SPEAKER_00: works and what they found work, I always like to ask what their experience has
[08:34] SPEAKER_00: been because there's a lot of people who theorize this should work. This should
[08:39] SPEAKER_00: be the thing that and then you don't, if it's not in practice, you don't know.
[08:43] SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you sharing that.
[08:46] SPEAKER_01: Another thing that comes to mind that's very important that I think some
[08:49] SPEAKER_01: organizations forget. If you have screened someone, you've onboarded them, you've
[08:55] SPEAKER_01: hired them to do a role in your organization. Why do you now feel that you must
[09:00] SPEAKER_01: parent and micromanage? So I try very hard with my leadership team. We don't
[09:05] SPEAKER_01: micromanage. I have touchpoint meetings. We go in, we talk about what's going
[09:10] SPEAKER_01: on in your area, what's going on in your department. We kind of strategize what
[09:14] SPEAKER_01: what we need, what the deliverables I need. And I'm not going to tell you that
[09:18] SPEAKER_01: you need to be at your desk from nine to five. My goal is that at this
[09:24] SPEAKER_01: particular time, this report should be done, this information should be done,
[09:27] SPEAKER_01: whatever it takes to get that done. I work with a lot of a lot of
[09:33] SPEAKER_01: wives, husbands, parents who enjoy the fact that they can take a minute away
[09:39] SPEAKER_01: from their desk with their with their children, walk their dog, do whatever
[09:43] SPEAKER_01: they need to do and then come back refreshing it their work done. And my team is
[09:47] SPEAKER_01: more productive. I have I brag about my team. We have an awesome, awesome team.
[09:53] SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one reason because I have enough children to parent.
[09:57] SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to parent other adults. That's where some organizations really
[10:02] SPEAKER_01: lose it because even though their folks are in their own home, they're feeling
[10:07] SPEAKER_01: just under pressure. They're feeling like they're being micromanaged and they
[10:13] SPEAKER_01: feel like, Hey, if that are you still at your desk, that, that, that, you have to
[10:18] SPEAKER_00: let grownups be grownups. I believe that strongly.
[10:21] SPEAKER_00: I that's a really important lesson. I agree with you. And I think it's very
[10:26] SPEAKER_00: challenging for people who grew up in a corporate environment where the number
[10:31] SPEAKER_00: of hours your butt was in a seat was the number of hours you were productive.
[10:36] SPEAKER_00: Exactly. And that's an illusion. But it's very common. And I think your point is, is,
[10:43] SPEAKER_00: you articulate your point really well, which is that that doesn't, that doesn't
[10:47] SPEAKER_00: matter. The amount of hour your butt is in a seat is irrelevant because that is
[10:52] SPEAKER_00: parenting. And I wonder if part of the reason that that, so I have two questions inside
[10:59] SPEAKER_00: this actually. My first question is, have you always had that philosophy? Have you always believed
[11:05] SPEAKER_00: that it really is about like you, I'm going to set this outcome. This is when this thing is
[11:11] SPEAKER_00: do whatever language you want to use. And then you do it your way as long as it's done when
[11:17] SPEAKER_00: I expect it to be done. Have you always had that? It would be my first question. And the second
[11:22] SPEAKER_00: question is, if not, where do you think that came from? So when I was in corporate call centers,
[11:30] SPEAKER_01: I was used to the rigid nine to five schedule. This is when you need to be here and you need to be
[11:37] SPEAKER_01: productive. And at the time, I wasn't really absorbing everything that was happening. But you know,
[11:45] SPEAKER_01: as you walk through life, you're learning things and you even after you might kind of look back
[11:50] SPEAKER_01: and say, hold on a second, when we started ATAC originally, it was Adrian and myself, we did
[11:56] SPEAKER_01: everything. We were everything were accountants, we're team leaders, we were everybody. And then we
[12:01] SPEAKER_01: started to take staff on in the leadership capacity and make departments. And then I thought about
[12:07] SPEAKER_01: it and I thought back to my days, in corporate call center culture. And there were folks that were
[12:14] SPEAKER_01: at their desk for eight hours, but they weren't productive. They were talking to the person next to
[12:19] SPEAKER_01: them. They were doing this, they were doing that. And in having a small company, because I always
[12:24] SPEAKER_01: say we're a mom and pop shop dressed up as a corporation. So in having a small company, because
[12:30] SPEAKER_01: I'm very hands on with every element of my company. In having a small company, if I brought you in
[12:38] SPEAKER_01: to help me with, let's say, workforce management. I am now trusting you to take care of the workforce
[12:44] SPEAKER_01: management. And then I have to in turn trust myself that I made the right decision in hiring you.
[12:52] SPEAKER_01: So it was an evolution over time just based on life experience. It wasn't something that I came
[12:57] SPEAKER_01: out thinking once I started businesses, exactly what I'm going to do. But it was just recognizing
[13:02] SPEAKER_01: from having corporate experience now being the corporation. Just taking a look at what's actually
[13:09] SPEAKER_01: effective. What's really effective? And you just sitting there for eight hours and I'm paying you
[13:15] SPEAKER_01: for eight hours, but I'm not getting the results I want versus here's a project run with it. Let's
[13:20] SPEAKER_01: talk about it next Tuesday and it's going to be spectacular over time. I think you have to trust
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: yourself as a leader if that makes sense. And once you trust yourself that you're making the right
[13:32] SPEAKER_01: decisions and you're putting the right people in place, let them do what you hired them to do.
[13:37] SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good point. I think you have to trust yourself as a leader and I think you have
[13:40] SPEAKER_00: to trust the people around you. Exactly. Exactly. And I'm curious if some of that came from. So both
[13:47] SPEAKER_00: of my parents were entrepreneurs. It sounds like you had the experience of, you know, parent and
[13:54] SPEAKER_00: grandparent who were entrepreneurial, if not full-time entrepreneurs as well. So you grew up with some
[13:59] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurial folks around you. And I wonder if some of that comes from having been exposed to
[14:07] SPEAKER_00: people who were entrepreneurial and were, you know, running their own time and doing their own thing
[14:13] SPEAKER_00: and making their own way that some of that exposure kind of makes you go, oh, it doesn't have to be
[14:20] SPEAKER_01: the same way. Exactly. I agree because later on in life, I would say 10 years ago or maybe 20 years
[14:29] SPEAKER_01: ago, wow, aging myself. My mom also, she went back into business and opened a business here
[14:35] SPEAKER_01: in the West End of Toronto. And I was also, ATAQ was in its infancy about 10 years ago. My mom was
[14:43] SPEAKER_01: still in business. And I was taking a look at the fact that I was balancing the kids, doing everything
[14:48] SPEAKER_01: that I need to do. But we were still getting things done, Adrian and I in the business. And I,
[14:54] SPEAKER_01: one day you kind of have that aha moment, that okay, we've gone to football practices, we've
[15:00] SPEAKER_01: gone to groceries, we've had dinners with the kids, we've watched the movie, but all of the work
[15:05] SPEAKER_01: load got completed. But we still got to do the things we wanted to do. And that was before we
[15:12] SPEAKER_01: started bringing folks on into the company because we're about three years in before we hired our
[15:19] SPEAKER_01: first leadership, a member of leadership staff. We always had customer service agents. But as I
[15:25] SPEAKER_01: said, agent and I were the everything at that point. We were young, we're in an infancy. So that
[15:31] SPEAKER_01: also helped as well, watching my mom run her business and balance her life because she was also
[15:37] SPEAKER_01: working at the same time and having the store and hiring someone to help her to run the store,
[15:42] SPEAKER_01: things like that. These are the things that really impacted me to understand. And then also,
[15:47] SPEAKER_00: again, I respect people. I respect people. That in and of itself is sometimes feels exceptional
[15:55] SPEAKER_00: when it comes to leaders in the corporate world. So I appreciate that. So I'm, you mentioned, you know,
[16:03] SPEAKER_00: being pregnant when you started this business and and watching your mom and kids and all of it.
[16:10] SPEAKER_00: So I actually want to get into how you how you find work like balance five children is a few
[16:18] SPEAKER_00: children that can make for some busy schedules, I would imagine. And you have other family here,
[16:25] SPEAKER_00: right? It's not like your husband and your children are the only family. There's other
[16:28] SPEAKER_00: things to balance and find. So how do you how do you find that balance? What does that look like
[16:34] SPEAKER_01: for you personally and how do you find it? Well, I'm the oldest of five and I have five kids
[16:42] SPEAKER_00: and a wife. So basically you're the mother of nine as well as the mother of a lot of people.
[16:50] SPEAKER_01: So I try my very hardest and I say try because it's a work in progress and I'm not going to say
[16:56] SPEAKER_01: that every day is perfect and I'm perfectly balanced and I hit everything on the park and do
[17:00] SPEAKER_01: everything I should. But I try very hard to be present in the moment that I'm in. So while the
[17:07] SPEAKER_01: kids are at school and I'm home and I'm working, I'm present and when they're here, I try to be
[17:14] SPEAKER_01: present doing mom duties. That door leads out to the rest of the home. When I'm here, I'm at work.
[17:23] SPEAKER_01: I try to I said a lot of alarms. I have a lot of alarms because you could get lost for
[17:29] SPEAKER_01: hours in work. I said, my husband laughs at me. He says, yeah, I'm an alarm for everything. I do.
[17:36] SPEAKER_01: I try to hold myself accountable and I try to make sure that I get check-ins and then also with
[17:41] SPEAKER_01: the little ones, I try to make time for each individual. We do a lot of group things as well, but I
[17:48] SPEAKER_01: try to make time even if it's just 10 minutes in every day for each person. Some days it's hard.
[17:54] SPEAKER_01: Some days we get a new project or we're onboarding a new client, but I hold myself accountable and
[18:01] SPEAKER_01: I make sure that whatever habits I'm forming right now for this week because I have to get everything
[18:05] SPEAKER_01: done in the office, it's not permanent. It's for right now and I actually hold myself accountable
[18:11] SPEAKER_01: with my family by telling my kids, I have a new client. This is what's happening and by Tuesday,
[18:18] SPEAKER_01: I should be done and we can go and have ice cream. A part of the balance is also being honest with
[18:26] SPEAKER_01: yourself and holding yourself accountable because you're not always going to be balanced. I won't
[18:33] SPEAKER_01: even say that I'm always balanced because there are sometimes when there's mom times, you recognize
[18:38] SPEAKER_01: with your kids that you know what, you need to park everything and that particular little one,
[18:43] SPEAKER_01: like my son, I need to go and have a chat with him or play video games with him and see where
[18:48] SPEAKER_01: he is especially right now during this pandemic. The balance, that's try your best.
[18:56] SPEAKER_00: I think that's important for people to remember that there's no one right way that it needs to look
[19:01] SPEAKER_00: and I often talk about work life integration rather than work life balance only because
[19:08] SPEAKER_00: in my experience has been sometimes when you say balance, people want you to tell them what that
[19:13] SPEAKER_00: has to be because there is a balance as opposed to, if whatever work life integration is for you,
[19:19] SPEAKER_01: it feels more personal. Exactly, I will not. Sometimes when I see other people sort of portraying
[19:26] SPEAKER_01: this idea of work life balance and like that is not true. There are times when I, like at the end
[19:34] SPEAKER_01: of December, when I just take time off and I usually audit, I audit my business every year,
[19:41] SPEAKER_01: I kind of take it apart in December. I audit my business and then I rest for a week or two or
[19:47] SPEAKER_01: whatever that needs to be. I also do that in the summer as well and I just check out and I'm okay
[19:54] SPEAKER_01: with it. I'm proud of it. At first I was kind of thinking this is not the best thing for me to do
[19:58] SPEAKER_01: but again it's the trust. I trust my business partner that things are going to get done. I trust
[20:04] SPEAKER_01: the folks that I've hired in certain positions that they understand the objective of the business,
[20:09] SPEAKER_01: they understand what we're all working towards and they'll maintain that while I check out for a
[20:16] SPEAKER_01: little bit. So people need to acknowledge the fact that sometimes you need to take a break of
[20:21] SPEAKER_01: balance doesn't mean you do everything perfectly all the time. It's accountability to yourself.
[20:26] SPEAKER_01: That's what I believe balance is. So ATAC is 10 years old, is that right? In March of 2021,
[20:35] SPEAKER_00: will be 10 years old? So well so happy early birthday and anniversary, whatever you want to call it.
[20:42] SPEAKER_00: In the last 10 years what have been the biggest challenges that you faced either as a leader or
[20:49] SPEAKER_00: as a business which you know either one there's lessons in but what have been your biggest challenges?
[20:54] SPEAKER_01: Biggest challenges there have been so many. Early on I would say year three we had a very big
[21:03] SPEAKER_01: contract, you were a partner, a partner firm that we partnered up with and they lost that contract
[21:09] SPEAKER_01: and it was one of it almost felt like we had put all of our eggs into that basket because this is a big
[21:16] SPEAKER_01: big contract a lot of revenues being generated and we were focusing so much on making sure that
[21:24] SPEAKER_01: everything was perfect with it and they lost that contract. In turn we lost the contract as we were
[21:30] SPEAKER_01: the subcontractor and we had to do a lot of reality checking. It was devastating. We were also at
[21:38] SPEAKER_01: the about eight months out of buying a new home where we planned out that we would have this
[21:45] SPEAKER_01: amount of revenue, we would have all of these things and put everything it was perfect and then the
[21:59] SPEAKER_01: even if you sell pens some more than one kind of pen. You need to diversify in business,
[22:05] SPEAKER_01: you need to always have your eye on the next thing. I tried like when we have a client or a project
[22:14] SPEAKER_01: we focus on making sure we do that well, we deliver however you always have to make sure there's
[22:22] SPEAKER_01: something in your pipeline, you always have to be evolving and when I said that in December I always
[22:27] SPEAKER_01: audit ATAC, I do that, I take it apart, I don't think that everything's going well and it's perfect now,
[22:34] SPEAKER_01: I take it apart, I take it apart from every direction, make my tweaks and improvement,
[22:40] SPEAKER_01: take a break and come back refreshed for the following quarter. So that was one of the biggest
[22:47] SPEAKER_01: lessons we learned and I'm glad that we learned that early on. I'm really glad that we learned that
[22:52] SPEAKER_01: early on because it's very easy to get comfortable and to get cozy and everything's working and this
[22:59] SPEAKER_01: is so awesome, you have to always and being an immigrant in Canada, immigrants Canada was eight
[23:06] SPEAKER_01: years old, I know what it's like to build here so I brought that into my business as well that you
[23:12] SPEAKER_01: always have to be building and you always have to be looking for the next thing with that lost couple
[23:18] SPEAKER_00: together diversify. I'm really curious, I mean yes and I'm really curious how much of that
[23:29] SPEAKER_00: immigrant experience and learning to build in Canada, you know starting new you and your mom
[23:36] SPEAKER_00: starting new in Canada, how much of that is part of the reason that you do something that's so few
[23:43] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs and business owners do which is pull apart your business every December instead of
[23:50] SPEAKER_00: doubling down on what worked in the past which is what most entrepreneurs and organizations corporate
[23:56] SPEAKER_00: does it to you, like it's not even entrepreneurs but most people they're like oh this thing worked,
[24:02] SPEAKER_00: I am going to double down on this, how can I systemize this one thing that then because that's
[24:08] SPEAKER_00: you skin and everyone gets very focused on that as opposed to doing what you do which is very unique.
[24:15] SPEAKER_01: Well I come in Canada eight years old being an immigrant here as you said just myself and my mom
[24:24] SPEAKER_01: and building from absolute scratch is everything it's woven into my identity, it's in the way that I
[24:34] SPEAKER_01: run my business and the way that I respect everyone. Being an immigrant you kind of learn that
[24:41] SPEAKER_01: unfortunately some folks will look at you and you are your situation, you're not you're not a human,
[24:48] SPEAKER_01: you're a Jamaican or you're a newcomer or you're not you so I try very hard to make sure that
[24:57] SPEAKER_01: my team they don't lose their identity being a part of our team, I actually welcome that, I want
[25:02] SPEAKER_01: that, I want to know where you're from and I want you to bring your input and I'm kind of going
[25:07] SPEAKER_01: off of the question a little bit but that foundation for me it's everything in the way I do everything.
[25:16] SPEAKER_00: I love that and I think that that is very powerful that you see people for who they are and you
[25:21] SPEAKER_00: want to know their situation and you want to know where they're from and what their story is.
[25:27] SPEAKER_00: So my parents are both immigrants, my parents are not visible minorities, they're tallying
[25:32] SPEAKER_00: it and Welsh like they so I wonder if the added like your mother and you are visible minority in
[25:38] SPEAKER_00: Canada that's it's real, I wonder that that combination of we are immigrants and we have
[25:46] SPEAKER_00: visible minority how much of that has informed or how that has informed how you show up as a leader
[25:53] SPEAKER_01: and how you want your teams. All of it. All of it and then we add female as well. So I make sure when
[26:03] SPEAKER_01: I get into any situation, any room that's not always the front of my mind but I make sure that
[26:09] SPEAKER_01: and my mom always said she always said where we're leaving the house you better make sure that you
[26:14] SPEAKER_01: you you you're put together because when you walk outside you represent me, so represent me
[26:19] SPEAKER_01: properly because I raised you properly. So your mom and my mom would have gotten along very well.
[26:28] SPEAKER_01: Definitely it's everything. I know I know what some people see people don't know me or what their
[26:35] SPEAKER_01: perceptions are but I make sure I walk with my head held high and I make sure that I give the same
[26:41] SPEAKER_01: respect to everyone on my team because I understand that we're not just all our situation, we're not
[26:46] SPEAKER_01: all our location, we're all human beings right. So that really really really has been a strong
[26:56] SPEAKER_01: influencer on how I run my business because I work with a team of men and women across North
[27:03] SPEAKER_01: America, the majority of them being in Canada and they're all from different walks of life. I had
[27:09] SPEAKER_01: a goat farmer on my team like it was so awesome. She would share pictures of amazing. Yeah she
[27:15] SPEAKER_01: shared pictures of like newborn baby goats and puppies on her farm like was so neat but these are
[27:22] SPEAKER_01: the people that add to our corporate culture and make I've had folks come back to us that have
[27:27] SPEAKER_01: gone out into the world because they want to you know get a full-time job out in the world, dress
[27:31] SPEAKER_01: up and make up on and they come back and they say you know what this family environment that you have
[27:36] SPEAKER_01: it's it's real and I miss it a lot. If you have anything part time let me know. Definitely definitely
[27:45] SPEAKER_01: definitely definitely so that's a part of everything I do. I would imagine that it makes you that
[27:52] SPEAKER_00: much more empathetic and understanding as a leader to have grown up as a woman as an immigrant.
[27:59] SPEAKER_00: I mean these are I mean I think a lot of people think of them as adversities and I'm air quoting
[28:05] SPEAKER_00: that because I don't think they are. I think I think our adversities are almost always our strengths
[28:09] SPEAKER_00: in the end but for other people it can seem that way and I it sounds to me like your strengths are
[28:16] SPEAKER_00: really what helps you be the leader helps you run the company that you run. Yeah because I never
[28:22] SPEAKER_01: I never make excuses. My mom would never she didn't raise us to make excuses or use our situation
[28:29] SPEAKER_01: as crutches or whatever that would be if you are having a bad day that's not your employers
[28:37] SPEAKER_01: not that it's not their business but you're not going to go in and be toxic and take everybody
[28:42] SPEAKER_01: down with you or I'm having a bad day everybody know. My mom always sort of raised us to be strong
[28:48] SPEAKER_01: put on your smile. It doesn't matter other people's opinion of you is none of your business. You be
[28:59] SPEAKER_00: your best you is advice that everyone should hear growing up and most people do not.
[29:05] SPEAKER_01: It's be your best you don't use your excuses because of course you know I know I'm visible
[29:11] SPEAKER_01: minority, know I'm female and know I'm female. I know I'm immigrant to this country but
[29:19] SPEAKER_01: all of these things are just they're a part of my foundation and they're not my definition and
[29:26] SPEAKER_01: some people do they they kind of do use that as you know it's adversities and people are kind of
[29:33] SPEAKER_01: like oh you know but no I've earned everything that I have and I'm very proud very very proud and
[29:39] SPEAKER_01: I respect everyone who's around me and on my team because they also have their own stories.
[29:45] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely and I think what you said around those things are really your foundation and that's why
[29:49] SPEAKER_00: air quote adversity right because I don't think they're adversities a lot of people have we taught
[29:53] SPEAKER_00: we hear that rhetoric yes yes but I think what you said around foundation that's really the key
[29:58] SPEAKER_00: these are your foundational elements this is what this is where you're starting from these are the
[30:03] SPEAKER_00: things that are core to your identity and true to who you are and they are not excuses they are that
[30:08] SPEAKER_00: is I get to start from this pedestal exactly so I want to be mindful of time but I do want to ask
[30:16] SPEAKER_00: so I have one last question I'm going to ask at the very end but before we get to that which is
[30:20] SPEAKER_00: because that's a little bit more fun is there anything so our most of our listeners are entrepreneurs
[30:25] SPEAKER_00: most reviewers are entrepreneurs are aspiring entrepreneurs potentially is there any advice
[30:31] SPEAKER_00: that you would give someone who is looking to start a business or running a business from your
[30:37] SPEAKER_00: experience especially transitioning from a corporate environment to an entrepreneur environment
[30:42] SPEAKER_00: because there are differences and running a business is really different than being in a business
[30:47] SPEAKER_00: so is there any advice that you would have based on your experience that you would want to share
[30:51] SPEAKER_01: do your research research is key understand what you're getting into and not just for face value
[31:00] SPEAKER_01: do your research if you can find a mentor and this does not have to be an official
[31:07] SPEAKER_01: type of relationship this could be just someone you trust and you value their opinion and you think
[31:12] SPEAKER_01: that they're going to be honest with you find a mentor who it would be great if they have that
[31:18] SPEAKER_01: industry knowledge but if they're also just a professional or they run a business find a mentor
[31:23] SPEAKER_01: do your research and then believe in your idea believe in your idea and put yourself into it
[31:31] SPEAKER_01: and understand that a lot of your first two thousand or five thousand hours are going to be
[31:37] SPEAKER_01: unpaid depending on the business you're in but look ask yourself do I want to wake up every
[31:45] SPEAKER_01: morning and be thinking about let's say you're selling cardboard boxes do I want to be thinking
[31:49] SPEAKER_01: about cardboard boxes every morning does this make me does this ignite some sort of passion
[31:55] SPEAKER_01: within me you have to love what you're doing because once you love what you're doing it doesn't
[32:00] SPEAKER_01: matter how many hours a day you're doing it you'll start working and kind of be like oh my gosh
[32:04] SPEAKER_01: it's midnight I guess I should go to bed so find your passion do research and try to find a mentor
[32:11] SPEAKER_01: or find a peer group of other professionals that you can lean on and don't look for yes people
[32:18] SPEAKER_01: the worst thing that can happen to an entrepreneur is a yes person that says yes yes yes yes yes
[32:24] SPEAKER_01: you should definitely do that I think you should make that investment you want somebody that's going
[32:28] SPEAKER_01: to challenge you or challenge you to think before you do something or give you good ideas that you
[32:36] SPEAKER_01: can build on so surrounding yourself with the right people I guess would be one of my things either
[32:41] SPEAKER_01: mentor a peer group and research and love what you do I think that's I mean I think that is
[32:49] SPEAKER_00: beautiful advice and you know I hate the rhetoric that we have around like a self-made man or woman
[32:57] SPEAKER_00: right self-made nobody is self-made we are all community made and you know there's a
[33:03] SPEAKER_00: a guy here in Toronto who runs a podcast called community made because he believes in a
[33:07] SPEAKER_00: version of that but really it is about community you're not in this by yourself and I think
[33:12] SPEAKER_00: that's a great reminder for entrepreneurs that that the people around you matter exactly they do
[33:18] SPEAKER_01: and there is no such thing I have great mentors in my life I have a couple people who are my mentors
[33:23] SPEAKER_01: they don't know they're my mentors but I know I could pick up the phone and call and just discuss
[33:28] SPEAKER_01: something and they'll give me great feedback great advice and they'll sometimes say yep that's a
[33:33] SPEAKER_01: great idea or they'll say you know what let's take that one let's let's let's workshop that
[33:38] SPEAKER_01: and talk about it again and I appreciate that that's what I need right I don't need people to just say
[33:43] SPEAKER_00: yes yeah I love that so last fun question you might have noticed I have a few books out of
[33:51] SPEAKER_00: shelf back here do you have any books or podcasts or resources that you love and it doesn't have to
[34:00] SPEAKER_00: be you know self-help whatever but that just have a lot of meaning for you that you would like to
[34:05] SPEAKER_01: share with I was so you know what a friend of mine actually and she's probably doesn't even notice
[34:13] SPEAKER_01: Makini Smith she wrote a book called a walk in my stiletto and it's sort of a biography of hers but
[34:21] SPEAKER_01: I haven't read the book because I don't want to read her book because I want to see her the way I see her
[34:27] SPEAKER_01: but she has a line of she does like motivational speaking she does podcasts she's always on time
[34:35] SPEAKER_01: she's always on time so Makini is somebody that I follow and I listen to her podcast
[34:42] SPEAKER_01: and just women I try to just keep an eye and follow and read a lot of women that are authentic and
[34:51] SPEAKER_01: transparent I'm very attractive to authentic and transparent that's great thank you thank you
[34:59] SPEAKER_00: for joining me today times it's been great talking with you I know it's going to be super valuable
[35:03] SPEAKER_00: for our folks so thank you it's much appreciated thank you