Shifting organizational culture through human-centred design

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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's Entrepreneur, where we talk to the entrepreneurs who are making it happen
[00:05] SPEAKER_00: across Canada and deliver the news, trends, knowledge and opinions from entrepreneurs and business
[00:13] SPEAKER_01: influences across the country. Hello, I'm Mario Toneguzi managing editor of Canada's Entrepreneur,
[00:21] SPEAKER_01: joining me today on Calgary's podcast is Jocelyn Holland, who is founding partner of Holland
[00:28] SPEAKER_01: Licensed Interior Design. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks, thanks for having me.
[00:34] SPEAKER_01: Okay then, let's talk a little bit about the company first of all and tell me just a little bit
[00:41] SPEAKER_02: about what you guys do. Sure, so we are based in Alberta, our head offices in Calgary and we also have
[00:48] SPEAKER_02: offices in Edmonton and we specialize in commercial interior design in workplace and in healthcare.
[00:57] SPEAKER_01: Okay then and a little bit of the history there, when did it start?
[01:02] SPEAKER_01: We founded our company in 2011. 2011, okay and tell me a little the history behind that, like
[01:11] SPEAKER_01: you know what was behind the founding of the company and why. Sure, so it's interesting story.
[01:20] SPEAKER_02: I founded the business with my sister who is three years younger than me and we
[01:26] SPEAKER_02: had an interesting journey through design school. We both did the same thing. We both went to
[01:32] SPEAKER_02: Mount Royal and took the interior design program here and then we both ended up working together
[01:37] SPEAKER_02: in the same architecture firm for the first portion of our careers and she went away to Europe,
[01:45] SPEAKER_02: came back and in our late 20s we decided to start our own business in commercial design. So
[01:55] SPEAKER_02: we left that architectural firm and started our own business and worked our way from the ground up
[02:00] SPEAKER_02: and we now have a, we started as just the two of us and now we have a business with 20 employees.
[02:07] SPEAKER_01: Well and tell me just a little bit the background of where the interest in interior design come for you.
[02:17] SPEAKER_02: Well, we grew up in a very creative household. My father was in advertising when I was growing up
[02:26] SPEAKER_02: and I got exposed to the creative departments when I was, you know, young kid and my, our mother,
[02:34] SPEAKER_02: mine and Jamie, my business partner, so our mother is an artist, a fine artist and I think we just
[02:39] SPEAKER_02: grew up in a very creative household and not really knowing what we wanted to do as we were growing up,
[02:44] SPEAKER_02: stumbled across interior design and architecture program and realized that it was a world where we could
[02:53] SPEAKER_02: you know create things that were built and I think it's just kind of clicked us both into what
[03:00] SPEAKER_02: interior design is and so we both jumped into the program and loved it and stayed with it as a
[03:04] SPEAKER_01: career. Where do you find the, I guess, inspiration and the ideas? Where does that come from?
[03:13] SPEAKER_02: Well, when there's different sectors of design, there's residential design, there's corporate
[03:20] SPEAKER_02: commercial design, there's healthcare and institutional and I think depending on what segment of the
[03:27] SPEAKER_02: market that you work in is different for each designer and where they pull ideas from. For us,
[03:33] SPEAKER_02: being in corporate and healthcare, we're very driven on data so we are really inspired by organizations
[03:40] SPEAKER_02: and their unique needs as we go through the process to hear what their needs are. We actually
[03:47] SPEAKER_02: design, that's where we pull our inspiration from, is we from the organization itself, we really are
[03:53] SPEAKER_02: driven by the data that we can collect for them and then help them build stronger, better
[04:01] SPEAKER_02: businesses. So when we look at inspiration, right now these days we're very driven by hospitality,
[04:10] SPEAKER_02: principles so we really look to what are hotels doing, what are restaurants doing and bringing
[04:18] SPEAKER_02: that into workplace interestingly enough because we're seeing a really strong demand for that
[04:26] SPEAKER_02: in new office spaces as people are being called back to work and then we're also seeing the same
[04:32] SPEAKER_02: in healthcare, we're really tuning into different ways to approach with those spaces look and feel
[04:40] SPEAKER_01: like. So tell me what kind of unique or different types of things are we seeing in workplaces these days?
[04:50] SPEAKER_02: That's a great question. I think we're seeing, I mean it's workplaces so interesting right now because
[04:56] SPEAKER_02: in a post-COVID world where we saw this incredible shake-up of how we work and why we work and
[05:03] SPEAKER_02: where we work, we have really seen different cities doing different things and having different
[05:10] SPEAKER_02: needs, Calgary particularly has seen a very strong, we call it call back to the office so we're seeing
[05:16] SPEAKER_02: a lot more organizations go back five days a week where other cities and we're still seeing a
[05:21] SPEAKER_02: very hybrid model and so a lot of the trends that we're seeing are accommodating what each organization
[05:28] SPEAKER_02: is doing from a policy perspective. So for example if an organization still is on a hybrid policy,
[05:39] SPEAKER_02: we are seeing for example that they might work from home Mondays and Fridays but come into the office
[05:46] SPEAKER_02: Tuesday Wednesday Thursday and their problems and how we design for them are different because if
[05:53] SPEAKER_02: you can imagine if everybody's working at home on Mondays and Fridays what are they doing when
[05:58] SPEAKER_02: they come into the office? Well they're meeting and they're collaborating and so all of this empty
[06:04] SPEAKER_02: office cubicle or cubicle space is no longer being used so we're really having to work hard to reconfigure
[06:12] SPEAKER_02: what it means to be back in the office in a post-COVID world. So we really look for understanding
[06:20] SPEAKER_02: what trends are happening to accommodate that new mindset.
[06:24] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how different is it? I'm just curious when you're designing a workplace for
[06:33] SPEAKER_01: different industries out there. How different is it say an oil patch company compared to say
[06:41] SPEAKER_02: an architecture firm or something like that? Very different and they have very different needs
[06:47] SPEAKER_02: and so we really take a lot of pride in how we early on in the design process ask the right
[06:56] SPEAKER_02: questions and analyze a company to make sure that we are pulling the right data out of the executives,
[07:03] SPEAKER_02: out of the employees to understand how they work, why they work, we call our process workplace mapping
[07:10] SPEAKER_02: and we really absorb that information, analyze the data and we'll get totally different results.
[07:17] SPEAKER_02: From like an architecture firm to an oil gas firm so whether they're an office centric or open
[07:23] SPEAKER_02: office, how many meeting rooms, how they meet their acoustical requirements, those are always different
[07:31] SPEAKER_01: for different types of sectors. Now they may be an odd question but what about the difference
[07:38] SPEAKER_01: like an age? I got an employee in their 20s that are maybe just starting out or a very young
[07:49] SPEAKER_01: in their career, one different thing than say the 50 year old that's been there 20 plus years.
[07:57] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we are doing a lot of studies generationally to understand the differences between each
[08:04] SPEAKER_02: organizations and the generations that they house. One unique thing that we see for Gen Z,
[08:11] SPEAKER_02: which is the upcoming age group that's coming into the workforce, is a real uniqueness for their
[08:19] SPEAKER_02: group is a demand to be part of a community and that is research that two years ago with COVID,
[08:27] SPEAKER_02: we were having a really hard time understanding what this generation wanted within their space,
[08:32] SPEAKER_02: but we see a really differentiation between Gen X and Gen Z that Gen Z is actually demanding more
[08:40] SPEAKER_02: of wanting to be part of a community than we had originally thought. So we're really designing to
[08:45] SPEAKER_02: be a part of that. One thing that we're seeing across the board in all generations is there's
[08:55] SPEAKER_02: no longer a want or a need for that tech startup aesthetic. Nobody's really interested
[09:01] SPEAKER_02: anymore in the ping pong tables and the arcade games. People are demanding a different type of
[09:09] SPEAKER_02: space and that kind of startup aesthetic is no longer interestingly enough desired by the younger
[09:15] SPEAKER_01: the younger group that's coming into the workforce. Yeah, that's cool because a few years ago,
[09:23] SPEAKER_01: that's all you were hearing, especially for those tech companies was pool tables and
[09:29] SPEAKER_01: foosball tables and stuff like that games area for employees. Yeah, we're seeing those areas
[09:36] SPEAKER_02: underutilized now. So design teams are working harder to really understand how to bring the
[09:43] SPEAKER_02: different generations together for that true sense of community. So how we do that really does
[09:50] SPEAKER_02: differ by each organization, but we really try and bring the employees within that organization.
[09:56] SPEAKER_02: We really work with them to be involved in that process. We try not to tell them what they need. We
[10:00] SPEAKER_02: try to hear what they are looking for and then design for it. Yeah, let's talk about being a business
[10:08] SPEAKER_01: in a business owner in Calgary and in this province. What do you think some of the benefits are
[10:15] SPEAKER_02: for being an owner here? I think Alberta is an incredible place to be a business owner. I think
[10:25] SPEAKER_02: there's so much talent here. There is so much opportunity. The networks here are incredible.
[10:33] SPEAKER_02: The business networks and we have learned so much just from the cohorts that we're involved in.
[10:43] SPEAKER_02: We fully recognize how lucky we are to be here.
[10:50] SPEAKER_01: In terms of from an operational point of view, just the business environment,
[10:56] SPEAKER_01: is it still a business-friendly city province compared to what it was a decade ago?
[11:05] SPEAKER_02: 100%. I think what's interesting is that our business, we really probably started ramping up our
[11:12] SPEAKER_02: business in 2012, 2013. That's when we saw the crash in 2014 here in Alberta. I would say for
[11:22] SPEAKER_02: our generation of business owners, I think it's been ups and downs all the way along. We've
[11:34] SPEAKER_02: experienced business just flooding in. We've always had to work hard for it and we've always had
[11:41] SPEAKER_02: to make the right connections and really prove why we're the right fit for the project.
[11:47] SPEAKER_02: I think that that's slightly interesting for when we started our businesses that there have been
[11:52] SPEAKER_02: a few significant events that we've had to trial and error our way through.
[12:01] SPEAKER_01: When you look at the idea of entrepreneurship, I'm curious from your perspective,
[12:09] SPEAKER_01: and your sister is, what was the toughest challenge you had to overcome in starting a business?
[12:19] SPEAKER_02: I think not knowing what we didn't know because we were very young when we started our business.
[12:27] SPEAKER_02: So many fails, so many things that we've learned from. I think starting young was an advantage
[12:38] SPEAKER_02: because we didn't have a lot to lose if that makes sense. I think some of our biggest challenges
[12:49] SPEAKER_02: have been wanting to be 10 steps further than we are and having to really work to earn
[13:01] SPEAKER_02: every single stepping stone that we have gone through has been one of our greatest success
[13:08] SPEAKER_02: and biggest challenges at the same point is really recognizing that entrepreneurship is hard work.
[13:14] SPEAKER_02: It takes grit, it takes willingness to learn, willingness to fail, willingness not to be the smartest
[13:21] SPEAKER_02: person in the room. So I would say all those things together have been some of our greatest challenges
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: and successes. So from your perspective, why entrepreneurship as opposed to maybe the
[13:37] SPEAKER_01: security, if you want to put it that way, working for another company?
[13:43] SPEAKER_02: I think maybe it's part of our DNA to be honest. I think we were raising a very entrepreneurship
[13:52] SPEAKER_02: family. We saw our parents start many businesses and trialed those. I think that it's just part
[14:05] SPEAKER_02: of who we are. I don't think there's any reason why two are not to be in a big organization working
[14:13] SPEAKER_02: for an employer. I think it's just in our spirit of who we are and get to us up every morning.
[14:19] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Now what advice would you give an aspiring young 20-something who was looking at
[14:29] SPEAKER_01: and thinking about being an entrepreneur? What advice would you give them?
[14:34] SPEAKER_02: Oh, I would say don't be afraid to fail. You're going to do that lots. Learn as much as you
[14:46] SPEAKER_02: possibly can. Get involved with communities of other people that are in that entrepreneurship
[14:54] SPEAKER_02: field because there are so many questions and so many things to navigate and wait through when
[15:00] SPEAKER_02: surround yourself with a community. I can go a long way. Having my sister as a business partner
[15:06] SPEAKER_02: was an incredible asset through the process because we were in it together. So all the late nights,
[15:14] SPEAKER_02: there was always someone on the other end of the phone working through things. So if you're
[15:20] SPEAKER_02: working on it by yourself, I would say get yourself a community.
[15:24] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Were there any times initially that you thought, why am I doing this? Maybe I should just go
[15:32] SPEAKER_02: back? You know, I don't think so. I think that it's really, I think you know when you know that
[15:42] SPEAKER_02: you're in the right place. And I've had lots of low moments but always known that I do plan to
[15:50] SPEAKER_01: wake up the next morning and keep going. Now, looking back at your career, are there any specific
[15:58] SPEAKER_01: projects that stick out in your mind for whatever reason that just thought that was really a cool
[16:06] SPEAKER_02: thing that we did? Yeah, there's a few. I would say one that we worked on that was a real
[16:15] SPEAKER_02: wonderful project is we worked with an organization called J5 here in Calgary. And they were
[16:23] SPEAKER_02: looking for a new office space. And I think they were really a pioneer in Calgary and really
[16:29] SPEAKER_02: looking at how to take their space for their 50 employees and kind of turn upside down the
[16:40] SPEAKER_02: definition of a workplace. And they worked very hard to work with their own employees to hear
[16:46] SPEAKER_02: what their needs were. And the founder, one of the founders when I first met with him said to me,
[16:52] SPEAKER_02: we're going to take, I think it's about 10,000 square feet of space and we only need eight work
[16:57] SPEAKER_02: stations. And the rest will be total collaboration space and spaces that our staff need to do their
[17:06] SPEAKER_02: best work. And I think that was one of the really rewarding projects recently. And another one I
[17:11] SPEAKER_02: mentioned is we recently completed CF PCN project here in Calgary. And that was a few different
[17:21] SPEAKER_02: clinics with the PCN that came together right across from the new cancer center here in Calgary.
[17:27] SPEAKER_02: And that just opened a few months ago and it's a really beautiful space and really defines, redefines
[17:35] SPEAKER_02: what healthcare should look and feel like in the public system. Sorry PCN is.
[17:41] SPEAKER_02: The primary care network. Calgary, what health is primary care network? Okay, excellent.
[17:47] SPEAKER_01: Now obviously one of the things about being an entrepreneur is it's a job that's constant, right?
[17:56] SPEAKER_01: You never seem to be away from work in any way. But just curious of, you know, do you
[18:04] SPEAKER_01: where does work like balance sit for you these days? Well, that's that one is near and dear to my
[18:10] SPEAKER_02: heart as well. I am a mother with two young children. And I truly understand that you need to find
[18:24] SPEAKER_02: when you work for yourself, you do need to find that balance, that work life balance, especially
[18:29] SPEAKER_02: when your mother or have a family. I think it's really important to know how to compartmentalize
[18:37] SPEAKER_02: your time and really respect your time and know that you do not have to work till midnight every
[18:46] SPEAKER_01: night to be successful. Outside of obviously the family, what do you do to entertain yourself?
[18:55] SPEAKER_02: What interests, passions you have? Yeah, we love camping as a family. I love getting out to the
[19:02] SPEAKER_02: mountains. I think that's a real place for us for renewal and to get out of the city to reset.
[19:09] SPEAKER_02: We do that almost every single weekend. And that's been a huge part of being able to disconnect
[19:16] SPEAKER_02: and then come back fresh on Monday morning. Okay, wonderful. Well, thanks so much,
[19:22] SPEAKER_01: Jocelyn for joining us today. Yeah, thank you. Okay, that was Jocelyn Holland, who was
[19:28] SPEAKER_01: founding partner of Holland Licensed Interior Design. I'm Mario Toneguze,
[19:34] SPEAKER_01: managing editor of Canada's Entrepreneur. Thanks for joining us today.