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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: It's Toronto's podcast on the Canada's podcast network.
[00:18] SPEAKER_00: I'm Philip Bliss, a business visionally and co-host of Toronto's podcasts,
[00:22] SPEAKER_00: part of the Canada's podcast network.
[00:25] SPEAKER_00: Your source for great insights from entrepreneurs across Canada.
[00:29] SPEAKER_00: PSGAN is a dynamic technology leader, innovator and product manager,
[00:34] SPEAKER_00: with almost two decades of experience creating, developing and implementing solutions for
[00:40] SPEAKER_00: customers ranging from the biggest of multinationals to the smallest of children.
[00:45] SPEAKER_00: When I first met Pierre, he was and he still is, founder of Brilly.
[00:49] SPEAKER_00: An application released families of stress by helping kids succeed in their daily routines.
[00:55] SPEAKER_00: With Brilly, parents set up the activities their kids need to do when getting ready for school,
[01:01] SPEAKER_00: after school or at bedtime. These then come to life as a game on a mobile device.
[01:07] SPEAKER_00: Parents can monitor in real time from their own device while kids stay on task and earn rewards.
[01:13] SPEAKER_00: Brilly builds on the proven practice of using visual schedules to give kids structure and consistency.
[01:21] SPEAKER_00: While making them more fun and easier to use.
[01:25] SPEAKER_00: So let's get onto the interview, Pierre. Tell us a bit more about your background.
[01:30] SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the show. I'm happy to participate.
[01:36] SPEAKER_01: I have had a career for, well, over 20 years now, in technology and marketing
[01:46] SPEAKER_01: with the focus on software development. I've worked primarily in professional services.
[01:53] SPEAKER_01: But back when we met, I was very focused on my first ever startup, which is called Brilly.
[02:02] SPEAKER_01: And it is a system to help families and kids enjoy and succeed at daily routines.
[02:12] SPEAKER_01: So when my son was about five or six years old, we were running into a lot of trouble with
[02:19] SPEAKER_01: just getting through a morning routine, for example, getting him off to school on time.
[02:25] SPEAKER_01: Because he just seemed to have a lot of trouble with following our instructions and remembering
[02:31] SPEAKER_01: to do things and not doodling. And we often end up with these raised voices or meltdowns.
[02:43] SPEAKER_01: And it was actually really stressful. So as part of the process that we followed to try and improve
[02:49] SPEAKER_01: things, we went to talk to experts and we read a lot of books. And the best tools at the time that
[02:55] SPEAKER_01: they were presenting or proposing that we use were lists to help show kids what the tasks are
[03:05] SPEAKER_01: that they needed to do, visuals, attach to the list and also using something like an egg timer.
[03:10] SPEAKER_01: So that the child would be able to know when their time is up on any, on any given task.
[03:16] SPEAKER_01: And of course, these techniques work, but they're actually hard to put into practice in every day
[03:20] SPEAKER_01: life for most parents, assuming they even know about them. So being a guy who worked in technology,
[03:25] SPEAKER_01: and I was really interested in the application design, I thought we could build a better routine
[03:33] SPEAKER_01: guidance tool and actually make it a game for kids so that there would be a visual that shows
[03:40] SPEAKER_01: the task that they need to do, whether it's, you know, make your bed get dressed, brush your teeth.
[03:45] SPEAKER_01: And then each task would have a little timer attached to it. And as the kid completes the activities,
[03:51] SPEAKER_01: any time that they save from the timer gets banked for a reward activity at the end. So they were
[03:56] SPEAKER_01: motivated to get through all of the activities quickly and independently so that they could earn
[04:02] SPEAKER_01: some free time for whatever activity they wanted to. So we designed it and we tested it with
[04:08] SPEAKER_01: with a few families and we found that it worked and you were testing it at our place. And so
[04:14] SPEAKER_01: we decided to build a business around it and so that's how really came to be.
[04:22] SPEAKER_00: So why do you come on to Bernardo? I mean, what made you stop and say, you know, instead of
[04:28] SPEAKER_00: sort of working for someone in the consulting role, what made you stop and say, you know,
[04:33] SPEAKER_01: this time I want to do it on my help? Well, this was an interesting time for me because I had just
[04:41] SPEAKER_01: come off of, you know, sort of an agile transformation within a larger company. And that, you know,
[04:51] SPEAKER_01: and for anybody not familiar with software development, agile is sort of, it could be pretty new.
[04:57] SPEAKER_01: It's a different way of managing projects and it's very iterative and you're not trying to
[05:01] SPEAKER_01: define the entire project up front, you're just sort of doing, you know, little bits at a time.
[05:06] SPEAKER_01: And through learning that and learning about, you know, how products come together, I wanted to
[05:13] SPEAKER_01: do more of it. I was really excited about building products and I'm working with, working with small
[05:18] SPEAKER_01: teams to make things happen quickly and to innovate. And I don't know, I caught the entrepreneurial
[05:24] SPEAKER_01: from all of this exposure I got to to what the best companies were doing with the products.
[05:33] SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the timing was right, so I decided to give it a try.
[05:38] SPEAKER_00: How did you folks, I'm building that sort of stimulation into a business, you know, I mean,
[05:45] SPEAKER_00: wanting and making things happen with two different things, you know, how did you make it happen?
[05:51] SPEAKER_01: Well, I think to make it happen, it was really, it was a lot of work, but it also meant
[05:59] SPEAKER_01: becoming sort of very multidisciplinary. I guess I've always dabbled in a lot of different things,
[06:05] SPEAKER_01: but you know, I was the, you know, the guy handling the business, the guy, you know, thinking about
[06:10] SPEAKER_01: the product design, doing the marketing and, you know, going out and networking and, you know,
[06:15] SPEAKER_01: trying to find a developer to partner with and, you know, find the right designer and overseeing
[06:21] SPEAKER_01: that process. So having to, you know, just get my hands ready and do a lot of hands-on work was
[06:27] SPEAKER_01: was important. And then, you know, it wasn't a, it wasn't a cheap process either, you know, I was
[06:33] SPEAKER_01: fortunate to have some, have some savings that I was able to dip into and also some support from
[06:40] SPEAKER_00: family early on to, to, to, what was going to be my next, my next question is, you know, how did
[06:46] SPEAKER_01: you finance the start of your company, you know? Yeah, it was, it was, it was already, it was self-financed
[06:52] SPEAKER_01: initially, and then when that ran out, my, my father was, was very, it was very helpful as well,
[06:59] SPEAKER_01: and then, but I also along the way partnered with the great developer, Nian Kyle Lee, who was,
[07:06] SPEAKER_01: you know, he became my, my partner for a good long time, you know, the time we were at
[07:11] SPEAKER_01: in the same office space as you. And, so that was a, you know, that we made a huge amount of
[07:18] SPEAKER_01: progress during that time, just working full time on designing the product and, and responding
[07:24] SPEAKER_01: to customer feedback and, and getting it out there and getting in front of, as many influencers
[07:30] SPEAKER_01: as possible, who could, you know, help us promote the product or, you know, try to connect to
[07:35] SPEAKER_01: further funding, you know, from there, they're, you know, we just kind of snowballed and, and,
[07:40] SPEAKER_01: and we were able to, you know, build the product within this, you know, from, from the time I started
[07:45] SPEAKER_01: working on it, full time, the time we launched the product was about 10 months, and then we had,
[07:51] SPEAKER_01: I think, another couple of months, and we were on all, all platforms, we were like, we were on iOS,
[07:56] SPEAKER_01: Android, and, and the web. So, when you really jump into it with both feet and find the right
[08:02] SPEAKER_01: help, you can get something happening pretty quickly. And then, of course, you know, that's
[08:07] SPEAKER_01: after you've invested all that time, money, you know, the, the real trick is to try and, you know,
[08:13] SPEAKER_01: maintain your traction and, and become profitable. That's a whole other, that's a whole other story.
[08:19] SPEAKER_00: When I, we last chatted a couple years ago, I guess 18 months ago, or whatever,
[08:23] SPEAKER_00: really, it was, was still pounding along and making headway, and you would get, you were getting
[08:30] SPEAKER_00: some great, great reviews. So, so you kind of managed to, to find a way in the market.
[08:36] SPEAKER_00: But, you know, if you can put it in the five minutes, give me the story of, of, of, really,
[08:43] SPEAKER_00: then the track and really now kind of thing.
[08:47] SPEAKER_01: Sure thing. So, we, we were very well received by our target market in the sense that,
[08:54] SPEAKER_01: you know, we, we connected with a lot of families through, through media, like, you know,
[09:03] SPEAKER_01: we were, we were featured on Metro Morning at one point, which was great. You know, we went to
[09:07] SPEAKER_01: the, the big ADHD, uh, conversation, organization conferences in the US and Canada. And we also went
[09:13] SPEAKER_01: to conferences and, and met with, um, uh, psychiatrists and psychologists who worked with kids
[09:19] SPEAKER_01: and, and behavior and learning challenges. And, uh, when we got feedback about the product,
[09:26] SPEAKER_01: uh, from people who were using it, it was, it was absolutely heartwarming. That's really what
[09:30] SPEAKER_01: kept us going when, when things were difficult, um, you know, we were, we were receiving, you know,
[09:35] SPEAKER_01: really heartfelt notes from moms talking about how they were brought to tears by their child's
[09:42] SPEAKER_01: ability to get through a morning routine, just, you know, on, on their own within, you know,
[09:48] SPEAKER_01: with a smile instead of there being a screaming match as there had been like every day up until
[09:52] SPEAKER_01: that point. And, and, you know, that, that was the typical kind of feedback that we get. And,
[09:59] SPEAKER_01: despite having, you know, a lot, a successful product in the sense that it made a positive impact,
[10:05] SPEAKER_01: it was incredibly difficult to monetize it. Um, just from a, you know, strategic perspective,
[10:10] SPEAKER_01: what I had tried to do was to, to position the, the product as, as a solution, uh, and as,
[10:18] SPEAKER_01: uh, you know, software as a service and not as an app. And I was doing that on purpose because
[10:23] SPEAKER_01: there's a, there's a pretty pervasive, uh, perception that, uh, apps should be free or very,
[10:31] SPEAKER_01: very cheap. And unfortunately, we didn't have at least initially, or for the, you know, the,
[10:38] SPEAKER_01: the, the short to midterm future, uh, the size of audience that we would have needed to be able to,
[10:46] SPEAKER_01: to have a very low price point on the app. So we were, so we were charging, you know, using a
[10:51] SPEAKER_01: subscription model, uh, because of that, we were, we were, we were very dependent on successful
[10:57] SPEAKER_01: onboarding and then also on stickiness for the, for the app. And so stickiness, uh, wasn't
[11:04] SPEAKER_01: across the board. So we had, so a lot of families would stop using it after about a month.
[11:11] SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when I'd reach out and asked why, um, and, you know, it's for, for, for their feedback,
[11:17] SPEAKER_01: there was, it would say, well, the product was great. It worked so well that my, you know, my son didn't,
[11:21] SPEAKER_01: you know, learned his routines and didn't need them. He didn't need it anymore. So, you know, I had,
[11:26] SPEAKER_01: I had mixed feelings about that, uh, that kind of feedback. You know, on the one hand, I was very
[11:30] SPEAKER_01: happy and gratified that it had worked and that, you know, we, we had improved the lives of a family.
[11:35] SPEAKER_01: But, uh, by the same token, it was, it was negating our, our ability to make any money from
[11:42] SPEAKER_01: our subscription models. So we, uh, you know, over time, we, we experimented a lot with different
[11:49] SPEAKER_01: pricing and different subscription models and, uh, what was difficult and, you know, a bit of
[11:56] SPEAKER_01: end of it was a, it was a learning experience for me. It was at, you know, the cost of all those
[12:01] SPEAKER_01: iterations, changing the pricing model, um, you know, doing the work that we needed to gain visibility
[12:07] SPEAKER_01: from, um, from an analytics perspective and to what people were doing and, and what their
[12:12] SPEAKER_01: propensity to buy would be et cetera, with, there was a, a real, real development cost with, with
[12:18] SPEAKER_01: those things. And, um, so a lot of time and money was being spent just on tweaking the pricing model
[12:23] SPEAKER_01: and it never seemed to be working. Uh, we never seemed to find, you know, make that breakthrough
[12:28] SPEAKER_01: from a pricing perspective. Uh, and in the meantime, we weren't developing new features or,
[12:34] SPEAKER_01: you know, adding to the product, the product stickiness. Um, and so that was a bit discouraging.
[12:40] SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, we, we were also discovering from a technology perspective that a lot of
[12:47] SPEAKER_01: times we would, you know, we'd be, our platform used third parties, um, you know, for, you know,
[12:54] SPEAKER_01: either a database provider or push notification provider, um, just so we wouldn't have to build all
[12:59] SPEAKER_01: that stuff ourselves from scratch, which is, you know, typical for, for a startup to do.
[13:03] SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, a lot of those services broke. Um, they would break things. Uh, you know,
[13:08] SPEAKER_01: either they would deprecate a version or they would, or they would just stop working. And,
[13:13] SPEAKER_01: you know, we would get the angry emails from customers saying that they couldn't run their
[13:17] SPEAKER_01: daily routines or that their kids had missed their notification to start the routine.
[13:21] SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't our fault. In the meantime, you know, we had to dive in for a couple of weeks to,
[13:24] SPEAKER_01: you know, fix the bugs or to address the issues that had been caused by, uh, by these third parties.
[13:32] SPEAKER_01: So that was, you know, that was another challenge. And so, uh, at the end of, uh, you know, we were,
[13:37] SPEAKER_01: we were actually successful in obtaining funding from the Ontario government for developing
[13:42] SPEAKER_01: an education version and, uh, conducting a research with it. And, um, that was wonderful. And I
[13:49] SPEAKER_01: kept us going for another little while. Unfortunately, it was a reimbursement based,
[13:54] SPEAKER_01: based program. And I just couldn't manage to stay ahead of the, um, uh, the time that it took
[14:02] SPEAKER_01: from a casual perspective to get to spend the money on salaries and then, um, you know, wait for
[14:13] SPEAKER_00: the next one. So, um, I think it's really good because what a lot of, a lot of the interviews we do
[14:17] SPEAKER_00: is very, very much the runway and how it goes and things like this. But I think what you're showing
[14:23] SPEAKER_00: as an entrepreneur is even with the best of intentions, with a good product, with, with a good
[14:30] SPEAKER_00: reception. Sometimes it's just too tough to break through. So I mean, I think everyone's getting
[14:37] SPEAKER_00: that story. But I think that just so that we kind of conclude the story, maybe just saying where
[14:43] SPEAKER_00: really is today, because I think it's a great ending to, uh, an entrepreneurial venture.
[14:50] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure. So, so we got to the point where, and again, this was a, it was a problem with,
[14:55] SPEAKER_01: you know, a third party service that was about, about to shut down. And, uh, we couldn't, we
[15:01] SPEAKER_01: just couldn't afford to make, to do the upgrade, uh, that would have allowed us to, to continue
[15:06] SPEAKER_01: using the, um, uh, using that service. And so I sent the email out to our customers.
[15:13] SPEAKER_01: And, you know, by this point, we, we had several thousands of people using it. And just said, uh,
[15:19] SPEAKER_01: yes, sorry, you know, it would look, it looks like the end is approaching. You know, we're going to
[15:23] SPEAKER_01: try and find a solution. But if we can't, we're going to have to shut it down. And it was,
[15:27] SPEAKER_01: like, it would have been December 18th. But fortunately, uh, uh, several customers reached out with
[15:32] SPEAKER_01: offers or assistance. And, and in fact, one customer in particular, um, was, uh, like, you know,
[15:40] SPEAKER_01: also a technology entrepreneur was able to, um, you know, essentially offer to take over the product,
[15:47] SPEAKER_01: uh, and, and, and manage it going forward, um, with his technology resources and, um, uh, and
[15:54] SPEAKER_01: actually his, his nephew, his developers, his partner as well in the business. And, and so that,
[16:00] SPEAKER_01: that kind of blossomed into, you know, a little family, you know, a family business on his and it
[16:05] SPEAKER_01: based in, in Germany. And, and that, and so I've been working with them for the past over,
[16:11] SPEAKER_01: must have transitioned the BRELY platform during that time. They fixed it, they upgraded it, they
[16:16] SPEAKER_01: ensured it's continuity for the foreseeable future. And so the product lives on and continues to
[16:22] SPEAKER_01: help families and continues to, um, you know, make days, the days better for, for a lot of kids.
[16:27] SPEAKER_01: And actually a lot of adults we've gotten feedback from, um, former military personnel who
[16:33] SPEAKER_01: were suffering from PTSD and needed to have, uh, needed to have their routines out, uh, you know,
[16:39] SPEAKER_01: supported by the software. So just a wide variety of people, you know, this, and, uh, this was, uh,
[16:47] SPEAKER_01: uh, so it's, so it's a happy ending and, you know, in the sense that even though I,
[16:51] SPEAKER_01: you know, wasn't able to make it, you know, make it a profitable venture and, and recuperate my,
[16:59] SPEAKER_01: my time and money investment at least yet. It's, you know, it's been handed off to somebody who can,
[17:04] SPEAKER_01: who can take it forward. I still have a role in an advisory capacity, um, and I still,
[17:09] SPEAKER_01: I want to percentage of the new company, you know, there's, there's still, there's still a chance.
[17:14] SPEAKER_01: I still got some hope that, that maybe, uh, that investment will be, will be repaid. But if not,
[17:19] SPEAKER_01: I'm, I'm just happy to see that the product that has lived on and, um, it's working.
[17:25] SPEAKER_00: All this in mind, I mean, in terms of the Toronto experience, is there something about Toronto,
[17:33] SPEAKER_00: the entrepreneurs like technology entrepreneurs should know because I mean, you're,
[17:38] SPEAKER_00: you're a technology entrepreneur. I mean, and you obviously, you know, live and breathe the
[17:43] SPEAKER_00: Toronto environment. You have any kind of advice to people within the Toronto area in terms of
[17:50] SPEAKER_00: building, let's say, your specialty, you know, technology. Well, uh, Toronto is a very,
[17:58] SPEAKER_01: it's a great environment to be in as an entrepreneur from the perspective of, uh, you know,
[18:04] SPEAKER_01: such a hub for, for smart people, uh, who are entrepreneurial and, uh, there are so many interesting
[18:12] SPEAKER_01: things happening, so many interesting products being developed, so much inspiration.
[18:17] SPEAKER_01: And also a pretty good support network, uh, and, in, in terms of the organizations that, uh,
[18:22] SPEAKER_01: that are available. I think if there's any, uh, anything to, to be cautious about in, in the Toronto
[18:30] SPEAKER_01: environment, is that it's, it's pretty noisy. It's, it's very difficult to break through. And
[18:36] SPEAKER_01: the startup scene, I guess we could call it, has actually become a bit of an industry where,
[18:40] SPEAKER_01: you know, a lot of people out there, uh, are trying to make their business that of servicing
[18:48] SPEAKER_01: the startups. And, and sometimes it's, you know, initially it's, it's, you can mistake some of these,
[18:54] SPEAKER_01: uh, some of these people as investors, as a man or not, right? So you have to sort of think,
[18:59] SPEAKER_01: you know, you know, um, have a clear understanding of what everybody's motivations are and what
[19:05] SPEAKER_01: each person is trying to get out of the relationship. Uh, and I find that just because Toronto is so,
[19:13] SPEAKER_01: the bright side vibrant, uh, as a startup community, the, the startup scene actually has a lot of
[19:19] SPEAKER_00: noise in it too, that, yeah. So let's move off that. Give us the top three things on your inspired
[19:28] SPEAKER_00: life list, because I know you're kind of an inspired kind of guy. I mean, I, what, what is one of
[19:34] SPEAKER_01: those top three things that inspires P.A. Hmm. I really like solving problems. Um, and I like,
[19:45] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm a, I'm a tech nerd to my core. I'm not a programmer, but I, you know, I dabble a lot
[19:52] SPEAKER_01: with code myself for the just song, you know, interesting, interesting hobby projects. So I just
[19:58] SPEAKER_01: like to hear what's going on and, and, and, you know, they're, they're just such great inventions and
[20:03] SPEAKER_01: ideas out there that just make me think, well, you know, if you could do that, maybe you could,
[20:07] SPEAKER_01: this and, and I get excited about the, you know, the possibility of designing something that works
[20:12] SPEAKER_01: and, and, and building it and getting it out there. To me, that's, that's great. So I don't know,
[20:20] SPEAKER_00: whether you went as far as this question. So there's a small tropical island just off for you,
[20:25] SPEAKER_00: G, that only has one phone booth and no internet. So we drop you off there, you don't have a computer
[20:32] SPEAKER_00: or a smartphone or tablet. You can use the phone booth located there anytime to call the boat
[20:37] SPEAKER_00: and we'll come back and pick you up. How long would you last before you made the call? And what would
[20:44] SPEAKER_01: you do while you were there? This, this island has the, the necessary, you know, food and shelter and,
[20:53] SPEAKER_01: you know, the basics of survival there or is that some of that? Mr. Martin, it's an abundant tropical
[20:58] SPEAKER_00: island. Okay. That's, that's an interesting thing. Well, it doesn't have casinos though, so yeah,
[21:05] SPEAKER_01: that, that, that, no. I would probably stay long enough to explore, until you get, you know,
[21:14] SPEAKER_01: to experience it. I don't think I'd be able to stand still for very long. I would, I'm, you know,
[21:20] SPEAKER_01: even when I vacation someplace, I have to be out and about doing something. So I would say,
[21:28] SPEAKER_01: I probably wouldn't last much beyond a week. I think, you know, assuming I can get explore
[21:32] SPEAKER_01: everything in that week and, and you just kind of experience it, that would be it, I think,
[21:37] SPEAKER_01: from here that I'd have to, I'd have to ask for, to be airlifted or shipped out of there.
[21:44] SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that, well, the interview has been great in the sense you've showed a lot of people
[21:49] SPEAKER_00: summoned the good and the bad and a bit of ugly about entrepreneurship. And some people,
[21:54] SPEAKER_00: they want to get a hold of you, you know, how can people get a hold of you? Is there anything
[21:59] SPEAKER_01: you'd like to add that I missed out? Well, one thing I'd like to add, especially as far as,
[22:07] SPEAKER_01: you know, the earlier question about inspiration is that my, my wife and son, I've been,
[22:15] SPEAKER_01: you know, immense, immensely inspiring to me. My son, for, for obvious reasons, in that he was,
[22:21] SPEAKER_01: you know, he kind of gave me the reason to, to, to do the, yeah, yeah, product, but also because,
[22:26] SPEAKER_01: you know, he along the way, he was always giving me great input, just, you know, really being supportive
[22:32] SPEAKER_01: for his old man. And, and of course, my wife went through as probably as much, you know, of the
[22:37] SPEAKER_01: difficult times as I did just sort of propping me up and, and this, you gotta have a good,
[22:42] SPEAKER_00: a good life to shine or a good husband whose idea. Exactly. Yeah, so,
[22:46] SPEAKER_01: exactly. So, I'm happy to share, I mean, anything that people might think of value is in terms of
[22:57] SPEAKER_01: my experience with the start-ups, start-ups, and start-ups, and start-ups itself. And so, I do,
[23:02] SPEAKER_01: I do, I do email that, uh, at, at, Pierre at, really dot, co, vrili dot, co. Pierre, it's been great
[23:10] SPEAKER_00: talking to you. And, uh, thank you everybody. I'm sure, I hope it was a very interesting experience,
[23:17] SPEAKER_00: listen, listen to Pierre. Thanks everyone for taking the time today to listen to Toronto's podcast
[23:22] SPEAKER_00: on the Canada's podcast network. We hope you enjoyed the podcast today. Make sure you sign up for
[23:29] SPEAKER_00: our newsletters or write a review for us on iTunes. You can connect with us on Twitter, Facebook,
[23:34] SPEAKER_00: Instagram, LinkedIn or at Canada'spodcast.com. You can also check out what other entrepreneurs are
[23:41] SPEAKER_00: doing across the country. I'm Phil Bliss, see you next time.
