Why adopting “Weology” should be your #1 innovation strategy

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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's Podcast. Canada's Podcast, the number one podcast for
[00:09] SPEAKER_02: entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. Hello this is Angela Faye from Canada's podcast. I'm
[00:15] SPEAKER_02: here today with Peter Isito and Peter has just completed a two year turnaround
[00:21] SPEAKER_02: in the operation of Canada's largest mortgage brokerage, the mortgage alliance
[00:26] SPEAKER_02: company of Canada. And part of that is probably most famous for being a
[00:31] SPEAKER_02: founding member of Tangerine, formerly ING Direct. So we are privileged to have
[00:36] SPEAKER_02: this duo citizen, Canadian American here on this podcast with us today, talking
[00:42] SPEAKER_02: about how he helped transform ING Direct and to Canada's most preferred everyday
[00:49] SPEAKER_02: bank, ultimately leading to the 2012 3.1 billion acquisition of ING by
[00:56] SPEAKER_02: Scotia Bank. Right now Peter himself is currently focused on reversing the
[01:00] SPEAKER_02: epidemic of quiet quitting through caring and compassionate leadership. So today
[01:05] SPEAKER_02: we are screwing the status quo and adopting theology as a number one innovation
[01:11] SPEAKER_01: strategy. Well, Peter. Yeah, thank you so much. Sorry, I was just getting
[01:16] SPEAKER_01: out, I was getting my copy for you. What a great introduction Angela, it's an
[01:21] SPEAKER_01: honor to be here and I really look forward to our conversation. And I hope
[01:26] SPEAKER_01: to have this podcast listeners enjoy it too. Okay, awesome. So first of all, quick
[01:31] SPEAKER_02: shout out to Zander, a colleague of mine who said, and as I was talking to him
[01:36] SPEAKER_02: about corporate culture and what I think a lot of companies should adopt in
[01:40] SPEAKER_02: the future, he said, and you should read Weology by Peter, which has led to
[01:44] SPEAKER_02: this amazing connection. So thank you, Zander. Tell me a little bit more. What is
[01:49] SPEAKER_02: Weology? The concept, the machine, the humans and click. Yes, I would love to
[01:57] SPEAKER_01: because I'm very excited about the topic, even though this book was written eight
[02:01] SPEAKER_01: years ago, but I think it's very, very relevant today. So it was written in
[02:05] SPEAKER_01: like I was the president CEO of ING Direct, which as you rightfully pointed out
[02:09] SPEAKER_01: after Scotia bought us, we renamed to Tangerine and there was an opportunity to
[02:15] SPEAKER_01: write a book and share sort of the internal philosophies of Tangerine and
[02:21] SPEAKER_01: more in particular, as it relates to leadership. So it really is a book about
[02:25] SPEAKER_01: the leadership style that I learned over my two decades, actually 21 years with
[02:31] SPEAKER_01: ING Direct Canada, the US back in Canada, and which was launched all around the
[02:36] SPEAKER_01: world. And I think it's a bunch of lessons I've learned about leadership as
[02:40] SPEAKER_01: well as observing other great leaders. And my goal, A, was to share a little bit
[02:47] SPEAKER_01: with people about the inner workings of how a company like this works. That's
[02:51] SPEAKER_01: been so transformative and so successful. But also as a guide for, you know, the
[02:57] SPEAKER_01: hopefully the way leaders will lead in the future. And it's organized in a few
[03:02] SPEAKER_01: sections. There's hundreds of stories that I've personally either experienced
[03:06] SPEAKER_01: or I've been exposed to. And I think the core of the book and the message is
[03:12] SPEAKER_01: really this, which is the core to success is people, right? And the highest
[03:18] SPEAKER_01: best use of a leader is to help inspire and guide and help people grow so that
[03:24] SPEAKER_01: they can be the best that they could be. And if we comes before me, meaning the
[03:30] SPEAKER_01: team before my own personal needs that we all win together. And I think that's
[03:35] SPEAKER_01: the lessons I've learned in my years in leadership.
[03:40] SPEAKER_02: Awesome. And can you, I mean, that's broken. I know the book haven't read it
[03:43] SPEAKER_02: covered cover, but it's coming. The concept, the machine, the humans, what is
[03:48] SPEAKER_02: click?
[03:50] SPEAKER_01: So click click is really like, you know, when you when you listen to the concept,
[03:55] SPEAKER_01: and then you learn a little bit about how we all of you works inside of an
[04:00] SPEAKER_01: organization. And then you focus a little bit on the people side of things. And
[04:04] SPEAKER_01: for me, when you put all those things together, click, you know, it's like the
[04:09] SPEAKER_01: conclusion. And you know, when you have that moment where, so it's funny when I was,
[04:14] SPEAKER_01: you know, writing it, I wrote stories and stories and lessons learned. And when
[04:19] SPEAKER_01: you organize them and put them all together, for me, there was a click. And the
[04:24] SPEAKER_01: click led to the title of biology. So for me, click is really the conclusion.
[04:30] SPEAKER_01: When you get all the pieces, you put them together, a light bulb goes off where I
[04:35] SPEAKER_01: get this leadership style and how it leads to the individual success, the team
[04:40] SPEAKER_01: success, the stakeholders success. And yeah, really the story of Tangerine and
[04:46] SPEAKER_01: other companies like it.
[04:48] SPEAKER_02: Well, and I mean, I kind of, you know, said the finale, which is the take over
[04:54] SPEAKER_02: and the successes is very much, it speaks for itself. But talking about, okay,
[05:01] SPEAKER_02: I love the idea we read the book, we adopt the philosophy. What do you do on
[05:06] SPEAKER_02: Monday, right? What are your favorite ideas and stories that you've seen?
[05:11] SPEAKER_02: We all of you work over and above the status quo of everybody and it for
[05:16] SPEAKER_02: yourself. What are the favorite, what are your favorite stories?
[05:20] SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a lot of them over a long period of time.
[05:22] SPEAKER_01: And it'd be hard to implement them all on Monday.
[05:26] SPEAKER_01: But that's a great segue actually into probably not one of the ones I would have
[05:30] SPEAKER_01: brought to the forefront. But certainly one thing I've learned, I think it's
[05:34] SPEAKER_01: common among all leaders and it's common among all organizations.
[05:38] SPEAKER_01: No, we can't do them all on Monday because organizations can't, you know,
[05:43] SPEAKER_01: depending on your organization and people, I mean, it's hard to do 10 things
[05:48] SPEAKER_01: as well on Monday. So we have to focus. And one thing I learned is when we were
[05:53] SPEAKER_01: very focused on a customer and we were focused on one product and one experience,
[05:59] SPEAKER_01: how easy it was to do a really good job. And then when you started adding other
[06:04] SPEAKER_01: focuses and products and things like that, that's where you start to learn the
[06:10] SPEAKER_01: limitations of how much change an individual and a company can undertake at one
[06:15] SPEAKER_01: time. So I'd say that's one really important lesson, which is leaders and senior
[06:21] SPEAKER_01: teams need to be very, very thoughtful about how much change an organization can
[06:25] SPEAKER_01: handle and doing one or two or three things great and prioritizing them.
[06:31] SPEAKER_01: You know, you said when we started screw the status quo and it is, you know,
[06:36] SPEAKER_01: maybe a little kind of a little more punchy in the face than I than I am,
[06:40] SPEAKER_01: but I do stand by it, which is, you know, here, this is the lesson about asking
[06:45] SPEAKER_01: why or why not. We were trying to be a challenge, a global challenger and definitely
[06:51] SPEAKER_01: a challenger here in Canada, in a sector that's been around in Canada for over 150
[06:56] SPEAKER_01: years. The only way we were going to differentiate ourselves was to be different,
[07:00] SPEAKER_01: but it's regulated, right? So you have to maintain and comply with the spirit
[07:06] SPEAKER_01: of the rules. So asking questions like, why do we do it that way? Why can't we do it
[07:11] SPEAKER_01: this way? When you ask the questions, why do we do it this way? And the answer is,
[07:15] SPEAKER_01: well, because we've always done it that way. When I hear that answer, I go,
[07:20] SPEAKER_01: I'm sure an opportunity right there. So fortunately for me, I had the privilege of
[07:26] SPEAKER_01: being a lawyer early in my career. So I really understood the rules and regulations
[07:30] SPEAKER_01: with regards to banking and compliance. So I could really challenge what we've
[07:34] SPEAKER_01: always done it this way and say, well, why don't you bring me the rule that says,
[07:38] SPEAKER_01: I have to do it that way. And then we could find ways to be compliant with the rules
[07:42] SPEAKER_01: and the laws, but still be different and innovative. I think another important lesson I
[07:50] SPEAKER_01: learned is around culture, right? And, you know, if you build a culture of people
[07:59] SPEAKER_01: who care about their clients, they care about each other and they really want to have
[08:03] SPEAKER_01: a positive impact on people's lives. In our case, it was to help our clients live a
[08:08] SPEAKER_01: healthier financial life by helping them take control of their money and their finances.
[08:14] SPEAKER_01: That if you really do build a culture that has momentum, your competitor really cannot
[08:21] SPEAKER_01: copy you. It's almost impossible for them to do it. And that culture is in itself a competitive
[08:28] SPEAKER_01: advantage. And maybe the last story I'll share with you now, because I don't want to go on and
[08:34] SPEAKER_01: read the whole book to you. There's a section there called Love the Haters. And I think,
[08:39] SPEAKER_01: for me, that's about how people who are critical of your business. So those nasty people who are
[08:46] SPEAKER_01: like, this is not done well or this is poor, this fee is not right or you say this here and you
[08:52] SPEAKER_01: say that there, you know, we tend to just try and tamp those things down. But those people
[08:59] SPEAKER_01: can be so radically important to helping you improve your business. And we had a mechanism to
[09:04] SPEAKER_01: listen to those people and be able to very in a very agile way make those types of changes.
[09:11] SPEAKER_01: And one thing I learned that if a hater, if the CEO or senior leader actually calls them,
[09:19] SPEAKER_01: they're not as mean anymore. And if you make the change that they ask for, which they never
[09:25] SPEAKER_01: believe that you would listen to them, a hater can become an evangelist very, very quickly. And
[09:29] SPEAKER_01: I think we built an army of evangelists who started as haters because we took their advice,
[09:35] SPEAKER_01: we listened, we fixed it, we thanked them and blew people's mind. So those are a handful of
[09:41] SPEAKER_02: stories, I think. I love those stories. I would like to elaborate on one a little bit. The Love the
[09:46] SPEAKER_02: Haters is pretty clear to me. The one that I'd like to elaborate on a little bit. And because part
[09:52] SPEAKER_02: of it is I'm working with a startup right now where the the court of big vision is super clear.
[10:01] SPEAKER_02: The piece that's missing for me in this environment is the why. And because and the second piece of
[10:09] SPEAKER_02: that, the missing why sometimes can be a problem. But the also the what we're talking from a
[10:16] SPEAKER_02: leadership perspective, but I also want to acknowledge from the from the ground up the employees
[10:20] SPEAKER_02: on the ground, what what lesson can they take from that from that we can't do everything on Monday
[10:26] SPEAKER_02: scenario, right? That I mean, there's probably patients, there's probably, you know, some
[10:32] SPEAKER_02: some states of being that they can adopt in there. So what what not so much advice, but what would
[10:40] SPEAKER_02: you love to share with all of the doers on the ground that are help you enact a really big vision?
[10:47] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think there's two things I wouldn't mind pulling out of what you just said. One,
[10:52] SPEAKER_01: did you talk a little bit about why, you know, like for me, a cinnamon, a synonym is like sort of
[10:57] SPEAKER_01: your purpose. And we all talk about that and Simon Sinek put it at the front of our our brains. And
[11:04] SPEAKER_01: I'm obviously quite a big fan of his, but I think the purpose of an organization and the why is
[11:11] SPEAKER_01: absolutely critical and fundamental. Why is that? Well, you know, you could have 25 people in your
[11:18] SPEAKER_01: organization, you could have 2,500 people in your organization to be very honest with you now more
[11:24] SPEAKER_01: than ever. People work independently, sure they work in teams, there's meetings, but there's so much
[11:29] SPEAKER_01: of the day where we have to do work on our own and we have choices that we have to make. And
[11:35] SPEAKER_01: if you have a very clear purpose or a very clear why that really is clear about the direction,
[11:41] SPEAKER_01: it helps when we're making difficult decisions as a team or when I have to make an decision as
[11:48] SPEAKER_01: an individual to move forward. If there's a clear why, if there's a clear purpose, it can really,
[11:53] SPEAKER_01: really help me make those decisions on my own and not need to get too much clarity and all that
[12:00] SPEAKER_01: type of stuff. So a purpose and a why is important and I think no matter what you do, you know,
[12:05] SPEAKER_01: if you make tires, if you make parts of a car, if you provide, you know, if you're provide clothes,
[12:12] SPEAKER_01: whatever you do, I do think collaborating with employees, finding out the difference that you're
[12:18] SPEAKER_01: making in people's lives, that you can galvanize around to make sure that you do it with quality
[12:24] SPEAKER_01: and with customer focus. I think everyone can find their why and their purpose no matter what they
[12:28] SPEAKER_01: do. We're not all pharmaceutical companies who are saving people, you know, from disease,
[12:33] SPEAKER_01: but I think we all have an impact on people's lives. So I think that's important. Now you're right.
[12:39] SPEAKER_01: You know, you got those armies that army of doers, people who love getting things done. I mean,
[12:43] SPEAKER_01: you'd love to have those people on your team. Actually, one of the biggest challenges for leaders
[12:49] SPEAKER_01: and leadership teams is prioritizing work. And, you know, there's 25 great ideas and great projects.
[12:57] SPEAKER_01: You only have the capacity to do five of them. How is it that you go about making that decision?
[13:03] SPEAKER_01: How is it that you go about communicating why it isn't made that decision? So the answer to your
[13:08] SPEAKER_01: question for me here is my leadership philosophy has always been around transparency, meaning I try
[13:14] SPEAKER_01: and share as much about the businesses I possibly can with our employees. You know, what are our
[13:19] SPEAKER_01: what's our focus? What is our priorities? What are what are our short term medium long term priorities?
[13:24] SPEAKER_01: How they fit with our strategy when we make a decision to not proceed with project A,
[13:30] SPEAKER_01: even though it was really good, we have to explain why. So at least people, they may be disappointed,
[13:36] SPEAKER_01: they may be worked really hard on that initiative. But they in their head, they should at least understand
[13:42] SPEAKER_01: why another project won versus theirs and that there's plenty of opportunity. And then hopefully
[13:48] SPEAKER_01: that project will get done in the future. But I think that discipline around transparency,
[13:53] SPEAKER_01: that discipline around prioritization and the discipline around communication is the
[14:01] SPEAKER_01: way to handle sort of more of those difficult situations. I love it. Well, and you actually alluded to
[14:07] SPEAKER_02: you know, people having to do a lot on their own and they're juggling a lot of things.
[14:11] SPEAKER_02: I actually think in this post-COVID era, there's also been a bit of a reset for people as far as
[14:17] SPEAKER_02: what their personal priorities are, which is I think why I'm kind of emphasizing the why being so
[14:24] SPEAKER_02: important. But you talk about quite quitting and you know, and wanting to stop that, put a stopgap
[14:33] SPEAKER_02: on that. Can you explain a little bit about what it means and you know, what are maybe two or three
[14:40] SPEAKER_01: key tactics to stop it from happening? Yeah, I mean, if you want to talk about sort of falling
[14:46] SPEAKER_01: into a personal purpose, you know, and certainly my wife and I, my family and I have our own sort of
[14:55] SPEAKER_01: goals and purposes and things that we really, really care about. But you know, when these global
[15:00] SPEAKER_01: reports came out, that said 59% of global employees are quite quitting and that quiet quitting is,
[15:07] SPEAKER_01: people are frustrated, they're little sick and tired with being taken advantage of, they've been
[15:12] SPEAKER_01: working way too hard and have not been appreciated. So I'm going to do the absolute bare minimum in my
[15:18] SPEAKER_01: role and I'm going to find filament at other parts of my life. And you know, when I, when I became
[15:24] SPEAKER_01: aware of this, this word, I mean, it's not a new concept, you know, we used to call it
[15:29] SPEAKER_01: employee engagement or employee disengagement, right? And so for me, the idea, you know, being someone
[15:38] SPEAKER_01: who's worked with hundreds, thousands of people who are so proud of the impact that we had on our
[15:45] SPEAKER_01: communities, so proud of the impact that we had on our clients' lives, so proud of the things
[15:51] SPEAKER_01: we were able to do together. You know, they're not, you know, we, we, we've gotten married, we,
[15:57] SPEAKER_01: some of us have had kids and have had successes in other ways too. I mean, life is, is balanced in
[16:03] SPEAKER_01: that regard. But the idea of people going to work and doing the absolute minimum and not
[16:10] SPEAKER_01: taking advantage of the opportunity to learn and grow and build relationships and build things that
[16:17] SPEAKER_01: they'll remember for their whole lives for me is, is very sad. Right. So I have been sharing lots of
[16:25] SPEAKER_01: thoughts, you know, on my, just on my LinkedIn page, because I think leadership needs to be, there's
[16:31] SPEAKER_01: a reason why people have reacted this way. I've spoken to hundreds of people about this or interacted
[16:36] SPEAKER_01: with them on LinkedIn or various channels. People feel taken advantage of. They feel that their
[16:41] SPEAKER_01: companies have profited very well, that they haven't been recognized, that they are cutting down
[16:48] SPEAKER_01: on jobs and making people do more and they're not paying them more. And so there's a real
[16:53] SPEAKER_01: legitimate reason why people feel that they need quite quit. But I think leadership needs to be
[16:59] SPEAKER_01: better. And I think employees are missing something of a real opportunity in life if they give up on
[17:07] SPEAKER_02: their jobs. Well, and I, I'm adding to what you've said by some of the undercurrents that I've heard in
[17:14] SPEAKER_02: many different interviews and, and work scenarios is not only is there a transactional, you know,
[17:25] SPEAKER_02: experience that happens day to day with most, with companies or what you do in your work.
[17:30] SPEAKER_02: There needs to be two more layers. One is the creative, right. The idea to create something
[17:35] SPEAKER_02: and use that, that other part of your brain, which is a creative piece. And the, and the third is
[17:42] SPEAKER_02: transformational. And again, that, that's the connection back to why for me is, you know, if you can
[17:48] SPEAKER_02: tap into, okay, a certain amount of your work is transactional, there must be a little bit of room
[17:53] SPEAKER_02: creative. And a little bit of room for transformational, you know, if you are growing and learning and
[17:59] SPEAKER_02: feeling like you're contributing bigger value, whether it's to your workplace or your community or
[18:04] SPEAKER_02: the people that you're impacting, those to me are the other two pieces that that leadership can
[18:09] SPEAKER_02: almost need to create the space for people to tap into. What, what are your thoughts on that?
[18:15] SPEAKER_01: I think so, you know, my views and my philosophy are from observations and discussions. And so
[18:22] SPEAKER_01: you adding on and adding on to my thoughts is that's how you collaborate and create great things
[18:29] SPEAKER_01: that are better and better and better. I completely agree. In fact, I just did a short video yesterday
[18:34] SPEAKER_01: on LinkedIn. Just about some of the common attributes I've noticed of all the people I've hired
[18:40] SPEAKER_01: and some of the ones who've been successful and one of them is you talked about, well, you talk about
[18:45] SPEAKER_01: transformation, transformational. And, you know, kind of what I was talking about was a little bit
[18:50] SPEAKER_01: about learning. And, you know, these people have this, and I do have this just a neat desire to learn
[18:57] SPEAKER_01: and learn and learn. We appreciate that we don't know everything and we want to learn more and we
[19:03] SPEAKER_01: find the process of learning alone to be exciting and invigorating. I can tell you in my career,
[19:10] SPEAKER_01: you know, one of the reasons why I have this perspective on leadership is, you know, when I was
[19:15] SPEAKER_01: 27 years old, the founding CEO of ING Direct in Canada, I begged him for a job. My resume did not
[19:24] SPEAKER_01: support him giving me a job and he did give me a job. And I spent, you know, two decades trying
[19:31] SPEAKER_01: not to let the guy down, you know, because he gave me an opportunity that my resume didn't support.
[19:37] SPEAKER_01: And I learned as much as I could, I sucked as much in as I possibly could and those type of things.
[19:43] SPEAKER_01: So kind of paying it forward because I see that people who really, really do relish that they have
[19:50] SPEAKER_01: that creativity, they want to transform and learn. If you give them the space and you give them the
[19:56] SPEAKER_01: opportunity, maybe to take a job that learning is the only way they're going to be able to be successful.
[20:03] SPEAKER_01: Or they get to work on a project that will greatly expand their knowledge or ability in a particular
[20:10] SPEAKER_01: area where they have a weakness and really is, I think, one great way to help people be engaged at work.
[20:16] SPEAKER_01: I love your perspective, which is there are transactional things about work that's just the way it is.
[20:22] SPEAKER_01: And none of us like that part, but we have to do it. As long as there's these other pieces where we can
[20:29] SPEAKER_01: use those other parts of our brain and we're growing, I think there's a real opportunity for people to
[20:34] SPEAKER_01: not give up on their job and try and do the minimum and love their work and love their teammates
[20:40] SPEAKER_02: and love serving their clients. And so we have some some ideas for both the the viewers on the ground,
[20:47] SPEAKER_02: but also the leaders here about how to how to overcome quite quitting. So let's go to one more
[20:53] SPEAKER_02: question and I love this again. It was a pop out in the book for me on collaboration was kind of the
[21:01] SPEAKER_02: theme, but the the quote is if you think innovation is about technology, you're excluding 50% of the
[21:08] SPEAKER_02: room to innovate, you must collaborate. Can you tell us more about that? What are your thoughts?
[21:12] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I mean that came from observing it with my own eyes. I will tell you that,
[21:17] SPEAKER_01: you know, I do some advisory and consulting work today. It's it's work I love. I love the
[21:23] SPEAKER_01: health, although for me, I kind of like to execute those strategies too, which is kind of I'm looking
[21:30] SPEAKER_01: not to consult, but to actually be teams and that, but this question about technology, particularly
[21:37] SPEAKER_01: in financial services, it's still one that I get asked about all the time. So, you know, for me,
[21:42] SPEAKER_01: so at iNG direct, that tangerine technology was something we referred to as a core competency of
[21:48] SPEAKER_01: our so that was something that we it was a real competency that we had right from the beginning
[21:54] SPEAKER_01: that differentiated us from our competitors, but technology is unenabler technology allows things
[22:02] SPEAKER_01: to happen, you know, whether it's a process like processing a payment or processing a check or
[22:09] SPEAKER_01: you know, underwriting a mortgage or whether it's an experience like for an employee about how they
[22:15] SPEAKER_01: log in or how efficiently they do their work or call center agent and how they can support an agent
[22:20] SPEAKER_01: do they have what they need or of course the client, right, and their experience in a retail location
[22:26] SPEAKER_01: or on the web or on a mobile device, right. So technology is just an enabler that so to use technology
[22:33] SPEAKER_01: effectively, you need to really understand the stakeholder you're serving, you need to know this
[22:39] SPEAKER_01: before you choose the tech you're going to use and how it is that you want to implement it. So,
[22:44] SPEAKER_01: in the room, you need to have, you know, your client, right, and you need to understand their lives
[22:50] SPEAKER_01: so that you can figure out how to enhance it with technology. You need your employees who are
[22:55] SPEAKER_01: serving those clients in the room, right. So you understand the struggles they're going through to
[23:01] SPEAKER_01: provide this service that they really want to. You need your operations people in the room because
[23:07] SPEAKER_01: they're the ones who have to go sort of make it happen after sort of some choices made,
[23:12] SPEAKER_01: whether it's to sign up or open a new account or buy a product. You need your marketing people
[23:18] SPEAKER_01: in the room because they're the ones making the promise in the world that you need to deliver on after.
[23:23] SPEAKER_01: I mean, you risk people and your legal people. So in the end of the day, when you're
[23:29] SPEAKER_01: I think you need to understand who the end user is and the different pieces of the process to
[23:36] SPEAKER_01: truly make technology come to life and really create a differentiated experience. So,
[23:41] SPEAKER_01: if you only have the tech people in the room, you're missing, I think some of the most important
[23:46] SPEAKER_02: bits of information. So, I, that is a perfect segue into one more question.
[23:53] SPEAKER_00: Canada's podcast, the number one podcast for entrepreneurs, by entrepreneurs.
[23:59] SPEAKER_02: So the segue is, you know, it's it's pretty status quo to just have, you know,
[24:06] SPEAKER_02: the internal management team. But you talked about involving maybe customers, you know,
[24:11] SPEAKER_02: people on the ground, maybe, you know, some people call it a test group or whatever.
[24:17] SPEAKER_02: How do you do that on a regular basis in business Peter?
[24:24] SPEAKER_01: Listen, it's a non-starter. I mean, we everywhere I've gone, we have, and listen, most of this was
[24:31] SPEAKER_01: founded, you know, in our Myi and G Direct and Tandering days, is we had a client advisory board.
[24:36] SPEAKER_01: So we had a group of volunteer clients who we had regular access to. We'd meet on a quarterly
[24:42] SPEAKER_01: basis. They were a representative sample of our client base. They volunteer. They wanted to be
[24:48] SPEAKER_01: a part of it. And we interacted them about the role they want to bank to plan their lives.
[24:54] SPEAKER_01: What we were doing well, we weren't doing well. How we could help them with some of their
[25:00] SPEAKER_01: challenges in life. And I think that really for us informed the products that we launched,
[25:04] SPEAKER_01: the experiences that we launched. We had our senior executives because we were direct,
[25:12] SPEAKER_01: so we were call center, mobile, web. We had some physical locations as well. But all of our
[25:19] SPEAKER_01: executives had to sit in the call center and hijack with call centers. So, see, they needed to do
[25:26] SPEAKER_01: one hour a month. It's not asking very much because they needed to understand our service people
[25:34] SPEAKER_01: and what their challenges were. And they needed to understand the clients. And we even tried to get
[25:40] SPEAKER_01: people to actually serve our clients that way as well. And then we had events in our regional
[25:46] SPEAKER_01: locations as well. So I think it's absolutely paramount and fundamental that we stay close to our
[25:51] SPEAKER_01: customers. You have to do it by segment because customers are generally quite diverse.
[25:57] SPEAKER_01: And I think you get a lot from that. And I think it's absolutely sustainable. It doesn't even have
[26:01] SPEAKER_01: to be overly expensive as well. And then of course, you need to do that internally. Talk to your
[26:07] SPEAKER_01: employees as well so that you make sure you understand what their experience is.
[26:11] SPEAKER_02: Awesome. I love that. And again, I'm adding to I'm part of a sort of global business
[26:17] SPEAKER_02: networking group called OpenEXO. And our Y is transforming the world for a better future.
[26:23] SPEAKER_02: And when you know that you're in a group and that is our collective Y, it's super sticky,
[26:28] SPEAKER_02: right? Like we know, okay, everybody already has that mindset and that's state of being when
[26:31] SPEAKER_02: you're entering it. And they have like an ambassadors program. So it's kind of the same thing.
[26:38] SPEAKER_02: You talked about the client group. This one is listen, we our job as the ambassadors is to live
[26:46] SPEAKER_02: and breathe the brand. So you know, understand the internal workings, make the why, the how,
[26:52] SPEAKER_02: what are all the functionalities of the group. And we earn our way into some of the offers, right?
[26:59] SPEAKER_02: So we can do a certain amount of work, work being spread the word, whatever, however they're
[27:05] SPEAKER_02: guiding us, whatever they need from the ambassadors is how we earn our quote unquote points.
[27:11] SPEAKER_02: And it's actually a lot of the points are just digitization of, you know, tokens that we can
[27:17] SPEAKER_02: then use within the community for expert advice. We can get all kinds of interesting things along
[27:25] SPEAKER_02: the way. So it's another strategy. But to me, it breeds that innovation, right? Yeah, that's a great
[27:34] SPEAKER_01: story. Actually, one I will footnote you, of course, but I will use, you know, in my two years with
[27:39] SPEAKER_01: mortgage alliance, you know, trying to try to help those people, we actually introduced a similar
[27:46] SPEAKER_01: program called we called an ambassador program too. So our most engaged brokers have the ability
[27:52] SPEAKER_01: to be our ambassadors and what we asked for them. And there was like reward for it. And, you know,
[28:00] SPEAKER_01: what we asked of them to do was a couple things. One is, you know, represent our brand out in the
[28:04] SPEAKER_01: public domain and represent, you know, who we are and speaking engagements or whatever the case
[28:09] SPEAKER_01: may be, or if we were recruiting agents that we could use them as a referral source, hey, you know,
[28:14] SPEAKER_01: go talk to them. And then maybe more importantly, just based on the challenges that we were facing at
[28:19] SPEAKER_01: the time, which was to use, to be the loan origination system that was proprietary and to test it for
[28:28] SPEAKER_01: us, you know, and actually run files through it and give us feedback and those types of things. So
[28:34] SPEAKER_01: I just think it just needs to be a part of the way decisions are made if companies want to be
[28:39] SPEAKER_02: successful in the future. And again, like there's always that that personally that wants to be the
[28:44] SPEAKER_02: early adopter wants to say they tried it first right and said, hey, so one one thing I want to
[28:52] SPEAKER_02: talk about just briefly is again, the concept of weology, how it helps individuals, we've really
[29:00] SPEAKER_02: sort of talked on business leadership. But I do believe that it can also help individuals and
[29:06] SPEAKER_02: communities, right? And in your own, you know, your own nest, whether it's at home or at a community
[29:14] SPEAKER_02: community level, how can you imagine the concept of weology to apply for individuals and communities?
[29:24] SPEAKER_01: Easily. And that's kind of like the click part that you know, you sort of mentioned, you mentioned
[29:29] SPEAKER_01: before, right? Which is, you've got this company with this purpose that really wants to help people.
[29:37] SPEAKER_01: And listen, maybe it's ING director Tandering or maybe it's something else, you know, could be,
[29:41] SPEAKER_01: whatever business whoever's listening, right? I think I think this is very relevant to. And if
[29:46] SPEAKER_01: you have a purpose and a why and you've sort of built a culture that is really, really supportive of it,
[29:54] SPEAKER_01: that there's a real opportunity in that framework for employees to thrive, right? To
[30:05] SPEAKER_01: be more empowered because they have the guidance and clarity about what they need to do. Listen,
[30:10] SPEAKER_01: if you're, if whatever you do in the choice of your day, if it's supporting our clients,
[30:16] SPEAKER_01: if it's, if it's supporting our community or our environment, you know, if you're, if you're
[30:23] SPEAKER_01: doing those things, then your manager's never going to get upset with you because you were,
[30:27] SPEAKER_01: you were sort of driving those priorities, you know, forward for the organization. So
[30:32] SPEAKER_01: instead of leadership that says, here's your 10 things that you need to do today, do these 10
[30:36] SPEAKER_01: things, then when you're done, go home or log off. We always had a little more, we always had a
[30:42] SPEAKER_01: fair bit more flexibility where certainly there were some transactional things that absolutely
[30:46] SPEAKER_01: needed to get done, but there was always room, you know, to explore a new idea or work on a
[30:52] SPEAKER_01: project or initiative you were interested in or, you know, volunteer to, you know, so there was
[30:59] SPEAKER_01: a lot of autonomy and ability for the individual to get what they wanted. So it wasn't overly
[31:07] SPEAKER_01: regimented. Of course, they still need to do what they needed to do. Also, it was our employees
[31:13] SPEAKER_01: who very much decided how we were going to get back to the community. What are the causes that
[31:18] SPEAKER_01: they care about? And of course, those would always be motivated by people's personal stories,
[31:24] SPEAKER_01: you know, people who have their own problems, our only issues in their community and we rallied
[31:29] SPEAKER_01: our people and our money together to support them. So the click for me is, you know, if you have a
[31:36] SPEAKER_01: purpose and you have a why and you have leaders that understand the individuality of the person
[31:43] SPEAKER_01: and there's trusts, so the individual knows that if they put the extra effort in and they've learned
[31:49] SPEAKER_01: that we're going to have their back, it creates this sort of circle of success, you know, where
[31:56] SPEAKER_01: you get momentum, it builds on each other. People want to be a part of it. You're helping more
[32:02] SPEAKER_01: clients, your individual people are growing and it just sort of perpetuates very much. I must say
[32:08] SPEAKER_01: I'm a product of that. I, you know, I was given an opportunity to take on a job that was better
[32:15] SPEAKER_01: than maybe my resume supported and I felt very supported by the community that was around me
[32:20] SPEAKER_01: and it allowed me to continue to grow and be successful and who knows where that goes.
[32:26] SPEAKER_02: Amazing. Well, I want to hear it just showed out to that guy that hired you a long time ago because
[32:30] SPEAKER_02: I think the financial industry is a better place because of your leadership. So let's just take that
[32:36] SPEAKER_02: take that take that to the next level. What do you have a vision specifically for Canada's
[32:41] SPEAKER_01: financial industry? I do. Like that's a very easy question and I'd say, you know, my time at
[32:49] Speaker UNKNOWN: the financial industry is really good. I think we're going to be able to find you direct and tangerine. I
[32:51] SPEAKER_01: think we only got part of the way to what's possible. Listen, my view is our financial institutions,
[32:58] SPEAKER_01: particularly in the in Canada, you know, we have the resources to be a force for good in Canadians
[33:04] SPEAKER_01: lives, right? Our, our banks here, all financial institutions, we need to be profitable. There's no
[33:10] SPEAKER_01: doubt about that how important that is, right? But they can also, I think, do more to help Canadians
[33:15] SPEAKER_01: live healthy lives, healthy financial lives, but healthy lives in general. And our, our financial
[33:22] SPEAKER_01: institutions in Canada, they're very involved in communities. They've given tons of money and tons
[33:27] SPEAKER_01: of time to their communities, but I really think there's more we can do to solve more critical
[33:33] SPEAKER_01: issues facing Canadians more broadly, you know, access to the financial system, living healthy
[33:39] SPEAKER_01: financial lives, increasing financial literacy, reducing the debt load, increasing their
[33:45] SPEAKER_01: savings and investments. I definitely think that there's, they have the capital, they have the
[33:50] SPEAKER_01: smartest people in the country that work for them. They have the data and information, right?
[33:56] SPEAKER_01: They have a global perspective, I think, really to help Canadian families and Canadian businesses
[34:03] SPEAKER_01: solve the problems that they face every day. So I know that it may be concerned, I think they can
[34:10] SPEAKER_01: still be very, very profitable and help solve these problems in a little bit, a little bit more
[34:17] SPEAKER_01: than they are today. They're protected in this country a little bit, you know, there's not as much
[34:22] SPEAKER_01: competition in this country as there is in the UK or as there is in the United States. And I think
[34:29] SPEAKER_01: because of that, we have a very safe system, but it's more expensive for our, for Canadians. And I think
[34:39] SPEAKER_01: in return for that, we need to help them be healthier financially, and which is a direct
[34:45] SPEAKER_02: correlation to being happier. It absolutely is. And there's one thing in there that I personally
[34:52] SPEAKER_02: is a bit of a personal goal is reducing debt load. I think there's like debt is not just a
[34:59] SPEAKER_02: budget line item. It's like a weight as I see it, right? That I think increasing capital and access
[35:05] SPEAKER_02: to great health, abundance, things like that is something that to me is in the foreseeable
[35:14] SPEAKER_02: future, certainly within my kids' possibilities. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on, are there
[35:23] SPEAKER_02: any locations in Canada that are a bit of the hub for where innovation is happening in the finance
[35:29] SPEAKER_01: industry? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, listen, I was very involved in the financial
[35:36] SPEAKER_01: technology space in Canada, and there are a lot of it here in Ontario, whether that's in Waterloo
[35:45] SPEAKER_01: or it's here in Toronto. There's also tons of stuff happening in British Columbia and in Vancouver.
[35:56] SPEAKER_01: I have three kids, I have a 21-year-old, a 19-year-old, and a 17-year-old. And you know,
[36:03] SPEAKER_01: there's ones in grade 12, the other two are Wayne University. So my wife and I are very interested
[36:09] SPEAKER_01: in, and we're actually exploring an opportunity right now that could land us in Vancouver, and
[36:16] SPEAKER_01: I would love to make that my first home as well. So I think in Canada, there's, you know,
[36:21] SPEAKER_01: Ottawa's always been a tech hub as well. So I think there's some really good things happening here
[36:27] SPEAKER_02: in Canada. Awesome. Well, and there's no secret. I'm a Canadian, I've lived in Newfoundland,
[36:34] SPEAKER_02: Nova Scotia, Alberta, BC. I'm out on the west coast right now, and the BC coast. So we're always
[36:41] SPEAKER_02: recruiting great talent to BC whenever possible. So hopefully we'll be able to have coffee alive in
[36:46] SPEAKER_02: person one day soon. I would love that. Okay, so I just want to get vulnerable just for a moment.
[36:53] SPEAKER_02: And let's just put it on the table. Are there any decisions that you've made in the past that seemed
[36:59] SPEAKER_02: like a mistake? Do you still consider the mistakes? If not, why not? But what have you learned from them?
[37:06] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I think there's no doubt in my life whether it's personal life or business life.
[37:12] SPEAKER_01: There have been some decisions that I shouldn't say that they felt like mistakes at the time.
[37:18] SPEAKER_01: And maybe at the time I wish that they didn't happen. I think for me, there's one that just
[37:24] SPEAKER_01: totally stands out. You know, I spent 21 years in my life with I&G Direct and Tangerine and
[37:30] SPEAKER_01: Scotia Bank. And I spent some time in, you know, being an entrepreneur, sort of in the financial
[37:35] SPEAKER_01: technology space. But I was I was invited to be the CEO of a medical cannabis company. And for me,
[37:44] SPEAKER_01: it was very exciting for two reasons. One is to be a financial services person and get to go over
[37:51] SPEAKER_01: into healthcare and, you know, as medical cannabis and be a part of something that was going to help
[37:56] SPEAKER_01: people's lives. And I did what you'd expect. I would do all I was there, which is go in the call
[38:00] SPEAKER_01: center and listen to the impact, you know, this was have positive impact. This was having on
[38:04] SPEAKER_01: people's lives. The other one too is, you know, in Canada, there was a real opportunity for Canadians
[38:09] SPEAKER_01: to be a leader globally. And I saw this very similar to the I&G Direct experience to bring
[38:15] SPEAKER_01: this model to the world. Well, after nine months, a lot of negative issues happened in the industry
[38:22] SPEAKER_01: and some negative issues happened in the company that I was leading. And that caused me and my family
[38:28] SPEAKER_01: a lot of pain. I was, you know, sort of wrongly called out in the media. I was me and some of
[38:37] SPEAKER_01: other senior leaders were fired, which would have been my first experience with that. Now,
[38:42] SPEAKER_01: fortunately, that has all resolved itself very publicly and all very much in my favor.
[38:49] SPEAKER_01: I think I've extrapolated the learnings from that. And I think I'm way better, way stronger
[38:54] SPEAKER_01: or a person. But listen, you know, in hindsight, did I wish that didn't happen, of course, it
[39:03] SPEAKER_01: caused me and my family a lot of pain. By the way, am I a better, stronger person. One thing that I
[39:10] SPEAKER_01: realized how rich I am is my friends and family. I didn't realize the army of people that loved me
[39:17] SPEAKER_01: around the world. And I know what now more than ever, which, wow, it couldn't be, it couldn't be
[39:23] SPEAKER_01: a greater gift. I've lied people from 15 years ago that I worked with the United States going,
[39:29] SPEAKER_01: I know you, I got your back, I believe in you. And boy, that's, I think we all know, you know,
[39:36] SPEAKER_01: when you look at the last few years in the world, and most of the many of the people in our lives
[39:43] SPEAKER_01: is, if you have that, I mean, you can, you can do anything. And so I think that was a great discovery
[39:49] SPEAKER_02: for me. And I think there in lies the personal
[39:54] SPEAKER_02: biology at its best, right? It's the individual, it's the community. And when you have that philosophy
[40:01] SPEAKER_02: in your body, it and you broker it in your, in your circles of friends and family and community,
[40:07] SPEAKER_02: they rally around you at the most important time. So thank you for sharing. That was a great start.
[40:12] SPEAKER_02: Um, just a, just a wrap up. And I want to touch on this because you mentioned health a few times.
[40:19] SPEAKER_02: So you were involved in sinne health. And I was going to leave this as a time, time permitting
[40:25] SPEAKER_02: question, but health is such an important part of, of every individual. So you were involved in
[40:32] SPEAKER_02: sinne health. How did you get involved in that particular project? And what do you envision health
[40:37] SPEAKER_02: and, and how do you envision health and business to be synonymous in the future?
[40:41] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So it was, so I was on the board of the foundation for sinne health, which is really
[40:48] SPEAKER_01: Mount Sinai Hospital, Mount Sinai Foundation, as well as, you know, a variety of other things
[40:53] SPEAKER_01: that they did. You know, for me and my wife, you know, we always chose, let's say, a larger
[41:01] SPEAKER_01: charity to be involved with. And that would always be time and financial resources. And then we
[41:08] SPEAKER_01: always chose a smaller one, right? So we chose a big and a small for just variety and impact and
[41:15] SPEAKER_01: and those types of things. But, you know, to be involved and start to understand the
[41:21] SPEAKER_01: health services ecosystem in Canada was amazing for me. You know, certainly the fundraising aspect of
[41:28] SPEAKER_01: it, but also the operation of the hospital, the challenges of the hospital was very, very eye
[41:34] SPEAKER_01: opening for me. And I think I understand the challenges that we face every day. That being said,
[41:39] SPEAKER_01: you know, as a leader, I still, again, like picking up on what you just last said about this
[41:44] SPEAKER_01: weology sort of framework. I remember an employee of mine when I was at, you know, Tangerine,
[41:54] SPEAKER_01: and he was in our treasury department. And I, and he worked so hard, he was so smart, I was so
[41:59] SPEAKER_01: fond, I am so fond of him. And I remember him telling you about his health issues and his sleep
[42:04] SPEAKER_01: issues. And he was a young man, right? And he blood pressure issues and all those types of things. And
[42:09] SPEAKER_01: I remember like sitting there looking at him going, I won't say his name, just saying, listen man,
[42:16] SPEAKER_01: like you are fantastic. We love you here. You have nothing to worry about. But, you know, you've
[42:22] SPEAKER_01: got to take care of your health. And if you need to go to bed early at night, or if you need to,
[42:26] SPEAKER_01: like, please take care of yourself because you're going to wake up one day, you're going to need
[42:30] SPEAKER_01: double bypass surgery before you're 50. And you're going to regret, you know, some of the choices
[42:36] SPEAKER_01: you've made. And I think for me, it was the moment I realized that leaders really do have a role to
[42:41] SPEAKER_01: play in creating a space in the freedom to make sure the balance is right between the really
[42:47] SPEAKER_01: hard working achievement oriented people. But I certainly don't want to be responsible for someone's
[42:53] SPEAKER_01: health going the wrong way because they want to promotion or because they believe in our vision so
[42:59] SPEAKER_01: much that they sacrifice their personal or family life. So, certainly some of the lessons I've
[43:05] SPEAKER_02: learned along the way. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. Now, I'm going to wrap up. How can
[43:11] SPEAKER_01: people get a hold of you post podcasts? So I think the best way for other than giving you my cell
[43:17] SPEAKER_01: phone number and my home address is on LinkedIn. That's the place where I'm interacting with people
[43:24] SPEAKER_01: the most. So Peter Asido, which is it's pretty easily available on LinkedIn. And just provide a
[43:31] SPEAKER_01: little comment that you saw me through here because I don't accept, you know, I don't necessarily
[43:36] SPEAKER_01: accept everyone because I want to make sure that's community is, you know, that I can I'm really
[43:40] SPEAKER_02: connected to it. Absolutely. So anybody who is really focused on amazing workplace
[43:47] SPEAKER_02: health and wellness and advancing the tech industry, we encourage you to share in Peter's thought
[43:54] SPEAKER_02: processes here, maybe connect with him on LinkedIn. And then, you know, who knows we might be
[43:59] SPEAKER_02: transforming the Vancouver Finance industry before before you know it. Peter, thanks for joining us
[44:04] SPEAKER_01: in Canada's podcast. Yeah, it is a great pleasure. There's a wonderful opportunity and you have
[44:16] SPEAKER_01: we'll see what happens hopefully you and I can have a coffee in person as a new resident of Vancouver.
[44:22] SPEAKER_00: Awesome. Sounds great. Thanks Peter. Thank you. Canada's podcast, the number one podcast for
[44:28] SPEAKER_00: Entrepreneurs, by Entrepreneurs.