Marie Chevrier is Founder and CEO of Sampler, Co-Founder of RetailTO and an Advocate for Entrepreneur Mental Health and Wellness

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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's podcast, the number one podcast for entrepreneurs by
[00:06] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs. Hi, welcome to Canada's podcast. I'm your host, Celine Williams, and I
[00:12] SPEAKER_00: am here today with Marie Chiffier, who is the founder and CEO of Sampler, the
[00:18] SPEAKER_00: leading platform helping brands like L'Oreal and Nestle deliver samples online
[00:23] SPEAKER_00: and gather the insight they need to build one-to-one relationships with their
[00:26] SPEAKER_00: customers. Sampler has reached over 50 million consumers globally in 24
[00:31] SPEAKER_00: different countries and its most notable clients include CPG industry
[00:35] SPEAKER_00: giants, Unilever, Pepsi and Henkel. Marie, thank you for joining me today. Of
[00:41] SPEAKER_00: course, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to chat with you. We have a few
[00:45] SPEAKER_00: things we're going to talk about, but first of all, I would love for you to
[00:48] SPEAKER_00: share with our listeners what your what your journey has been as an entrepreneur
[00:53] SPEAKER_00: to get you where you are, how Sampler started and how you've grown this
[00:57] SPEAKER_01: incredible business. Yeah, so Sampler's actually been around for seven years. So
[01:03] SPEAKER_01: long journey, I think, like a lot of misconceptions in the start, based on that,
[01:09] SPEAKER_01: you know, the companies that you see are getting some excitement and exciting news
[01:15] SPEAKER_01: that've been maybe around for just a few years, but actually no, we've
[01:18] SPEAKER_01: sampler's been around for seven years and the journey really started long
[01:23] SPEAKER_01: before that when I was in college and was one of the brand ambassadors that
[01:29] SPEAKER_01: you see on street corners and in grocery stores handing out free samples.
[01:33] SPEAKER_01: Even back then, I felt that product smelting was one part of the marketing mix
[01:39] SPEAKER_01: that although it was incredibly valuable at building relationships was really
[01:44] SPEAKER_01: not digitized and kind of done the old way. And so that the idea sparked
[01:50] SPEAKER_01: then and it would be probably like something like five to six years later that I
[01:56] SPEAKER_01: actually would put that idea into what became Sampler. And in between that
[02:02] SPEAKER_01: and I worked in agency, I worked in digital market, I worked in BST, but I built
[02:08] SPEAKER_01: a ton of experience in what would end up, you know, making me a well-rounded
[02:12] SPEAKER_01: founder, I think, in the digital product down in states. So yeah, that's kind of
[02:18] SPEAKER_00: how it got there. I did not know. I knew Sampler had been around a while. I remember
[02:23] SPEAKER_00: the name from a few years ago, but I didn't realize it'd been seven years.
[02:25] SPEAKER_01: That's that's really incredible. Yeah, it is. It is. It is, you know, it's so
[02:32] SPEAKER_01: funny because we'll talk a lot about like feelings and all the things that go
[02:39] SPEAKER_01: into building a business. But oddly enough, I remember like celebrating our fourth
[02:45] SPEAKER_01: anniversary in birthday and thinking to myself, like, oh, like, do I want to tell
[02:50] SPEAKER_01: people we've been around for four years? Like, like, it felt like maybe it wasn't
[02:54] SPEAKER_01: like a badge of honor. It was something like, there should be a barista because
[02:58] SPEAKER_01: like, should I be further at that state? And now like, we've been around for seven
[03:04] SPEAKER_01: years. We've employed like, you know, I actually thought that was the exact
[03:08] SPEAKER_01: number, but like tens of people into it during that time and generally the
[03:14] SPEAKER_01: ton of great values for different brands. So yeah, like, we're proud of that
[03:18] SPEAKER_01: number. Seven years is great. And I like to think it's going to be lucky number
[03:24] SPEAKER_01: seven this year. And we're going to do even greater things. I have no doubt. And
[03:29] SPEAKER_00: actually, I love what you just brought up. And I want to, I don't want to skip
[03:31] SPEAKER_00: past it, which is that I think a lot of founders, a lot of entrepreneurs,
[03:36] SPEAKER_00: whether they're solo printers or running a business where they're employing
[03:40] SPEAKER_00: people, I think they, there is this unspoken shame for a lot of them about where
[03:46] SPEAKER_00: they're at in their journey versus where other companies are at in their
[03:50] SPEAKER_00: journey. And they see the glorification of, you know, if they're especially
[03:55] SPEAKER_00: in tech, if they're, they're getting funding, it's getting funding is glorified.
[04:00] SPEAKER_00: You know, hitting a million dollars as a solo entrepreneur is glorified.
[04:05] SPEAKER_00: There's all these benchmarks that are, we've set arbitrarily. And if founders,
[04:11] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs aren't there, there's a sense of shame associated with it because
[04:14] SPEAKER_00: you're not at that benchmark. And I think it's really interesting that you felt
[04:19] SPEAKER_00: that at the four year mark, some version of that where it's like, am I far enough
[04:23] SPEAKER_00: along? How did you move through that? How did you, because I think it's a really
[04:27] SPEAKER_00: common starting point for some discomfort for founders?
[04:32] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think, I think gaining perspective is really
[04:38] SPEAKER_01: important. So as much as you might see that everyone's highlight, we all
[04:44] SPEAKER_01: look like they're raising money, they're hiring a bunch of people, they're
[04:48] SPEAKER_01: closing deals. Once you develop a great peer group of entrepreneurs, and you
[04:56] SPEAKER_01: start talking about like, hey, where are you at? You realize like, some companies
[05:01] SPEAKER_01: have raised a lot more money, but are way behind you on revenue or things. So it's
[05:07] SPEAKER_01: all relative. So I do think that gaining the perspective, having on, on
[05:12] SPEAKER_01: this conversations with other founders is a really good way. But also, I think that
[05:17] SPEAKER_01: we've all been lucky in this un luckiness that 2020 has been, right? Like, obviously,
[05:26] SPEAKER_01: been incredibly challenging here, but I have come out of 2020 on the pandemic with
[05:32] SPEAKER_01: large lessons. And you know, it's really cool right now in the middle of a pandemic,
[05:37] SPEAKER_01: a highly profitable revenue generating business and a strong team, right? So I think that some
[05:45] SPEAKER_01: of the, some of the, you know, sexy things, sexy things that, you know, the start of culture might
[05:53] SPEAKER_01: have put out in the past will probably be recalibrated through this time. And I'm excited about that.
[06:01] SPEAKER_00: Can I ask what some of the lessons that you've learned from the pandemic are?
[06:05] SPEAKER_01: So many, but yeah, like, cash is king, right? And I think that that's like the largest one.
[06:13] SPEAKER_01: At the beginning of the pandemic, you know, South America was actually just launching. It's
[06:23] SPEAKER_01: so we were at that point where we needed that next injection of cash as a venture backed
[06:28] SPEAKER_01: business to get to the next step. And we looked around and we were like, oh my god, like, this
[06:36] SPEAKER_01: is a very crazy time. And lucky for us, sampler is not a business that suffered through,
[06:43] SPEAKER_01: look at the client sales during the pandemic because, you know, we helped brand digitize product
[06:48] SPEAKER_01: sampling. So when product sampling wasn't possible via the pandemic, a lot of the budgets
[06:54] SPEAKER_01: actually transferred to digital and are staying on digital, which is so exciting. So we were one of
[06:59] SPEAKER_01: those opportunity, you know, businesses. So we got a lot of attention around the race, but for like,
[07:07] SPEAKER_01: a hot two weeks, very hot two weeks, I wonder, like, our, what are the transit are going to be driving
[07:15] SPEAKER_01: the pandemic? Will people be concerned about receiving shipments at home? Can COVID-19 be
[07:23] SPEAKER_01: actually transmitted to or through through this? So, so the largest, the largest lesson is cash
[07:29] SPEAKER_01: in is king. And we were, we were able to go ahead and raise our series a through the pandemic.
[07:35] SPEAKER_01: But there's companies that, you know, there's business models well known out there like, you know,
[07:42] SPEAKER_01: Uber who early in the pandemic, you know, or Airbnb who like early in the pandemic saw their
[07:48] SPEAKER_01: revenues like completely go down, right? And so with cash and bank or like a highly profitable
[07:58] SPEAKER_01: business before, you're way more well positioned to face the unexpected. So watch your watch your
[08:07] SPEAKER_01: financials. And when I say cash is king, I'm not saying go raise a billion dollars. I am not saying
[08:15] SPEAKER_01: you would quibby did. But I'm saying watch, watch your cash, watch your cash flow. Make sure you're
[08:22] SPEAKER_00: belling at the right pace, right? I think it sounds like such a simple, I'm aircording as well,
[08:28] SPEAKER_00: right? Sounds like such a simple advice to to keep an eye on your cash flow and really be on top of
[08:33] SPEAKER_00: it. And so many entrepreneurs and founders, it's just not how they operate. That's not their
[08:41] SPEAKER_00: zone of genius, if you like. And it's something that someone else deals with and they're not really
[08:46] SPEAKER_00: tapped into it. And I think it's a really, I think it's an important, not even a great reminder.
[08:49] SPEAKER_00: I think it's an important reminder that staying on top of that and being aware and getting cash flow
[08:57] SPEAKER_00: positive before you need to be is an ideal situation. Absolutely. So I want to switch gears a
[09:05] SPEAKER_00: little bit because part of the reason that we're here is to talk about mental health and entrepreneurs.
[09:10] SPEAKER_00: And you wrote a really wonderful article in LinkedIn. We'll link it in the show notes
[09:16] SPEAKER_00: last November around your experience with Burnup as a founder. And I'd love for you to
[09:23] SPEAKER_00: share with our audience a little bit about your experience and how that's impacted you.
[09:30] SPEAKER_01: For sure. So I mean, seven years. So last year it had been six years that I had been building
[09:37] SPEAKER_01: this business and working at 120% capacity and you know, I'm no different than anybody else that's
[09:46] SPEAKER_01: working at a startup right now. Whether you recognize it or not, you're working way too much.
[09:51] SPEAKER_01: And it's okay. It's great. It's awesome. Like I know why you do it. You're driven. It's amazing.
[09:58] SPEAKER_01: But at one point it gets, it's going to hit ahead. If you don't take care of it. And for me,
[10:06] SPEAKER_01: it was last year that it just a lot was going on. Like, you know, maybe not to be honest,
[10:16] SPEAKER_01: that much more level of like stress than usual, but just like it just kind of accumulated to a lot
[10:24] SPEAKER_01: at one point. And what I started seeing as signs of my burnout was that I was struggling with
[10:33] SPEAKER_01: memory. So I would like often be like in a meeting and talking and thinking like, no, remember
[10:40] SPEAKER_01: having this conversation or I was struggling with processing thoughts. And I was really exhausted.
[10:49] SPEAKER_01: Like you go to bed at night and you wake up and you're not rested even though you had to make
[10:54] SPEAKER_01: our nights sleep. And I started getting emotional sometimes like taking, needing to take moments
[11:03] SPEAKER_01: to go and stand up room and just like cry my eyes out. And it was just very unlike me. So
[11:10] SPEAKER_01: if you're feeling like you're seeing mood changes that in your, you're often telling yourself like,
[11:16] SPEAKER_01: hey, this doesn't feel like me. Like I feel different. You know, you might be dealing with something
[11:24] SPEAKER_01: that's not a physical problem, but actually mental problem that you need to address. So for me,
[11:33] SPEAKER_01: it really came clear that I was going through a burnout. And so at that time I decided it was time
[11:39] SPEAKER_01: to stop. And like, and I, that is my first piece of advice is like, if you feel like you're going
[11:46] SPEAKER_01: down that route, stop. And I know exactly the thought everyone that's hearing this is having right
[11:52] SPEAKER_01: now. Marie, I can't stop. There's no way I can stop. But they're like, I'm the founder. I can't stop.
[11:59] SPEAKER_01: Or like, I lead a team. I can't stop for I have this big contract coming up. I can't stop. You can
[12:06] SPEAKER_01: stop. Everybody can stop. And the biggest thing is if you don't stop, you will be forced to stop.
[12:14] SPEAKER_01: Because mental health is a very burnout is a very concerning issue. And it starts as maybe
[12:20] SPEAKER_01: something that is more like these like mental signals. But it becomes physical. And it leads to,
[12:28] SPEAKER_01: at one point, be taken care of. So stop. Before you stop or as you stop, just know that you can
[12:38] SPEAKER_01: rely on your team is the other thing that I always say. So for me, you know, yes, I'm a sole founder,
[12:45] SPEAKER_01: but I have an incredible team, a leadership team that is just so amazing. And when I went to them
[12:52] SPEAKER_01: and said, guys, I'm going through a burnout. Like I am completely burnt out. I need to take some
[13:00] SPEAKER_01: time off. I wasn't like, I was a surprised, but I was like excited to see that not only was I met with
[13:10] SPEAKER_01: incredible amounts of support, but that they they saw me as a better leader, I believe. And they
[13:19] SPEAKER_01: saw me as a human more than they had ever seen me before. And many of them said, like, of course,
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: you are. Of course, you are. There's no one person that could do as much as you're doing, right?
[13:35] SPEAKER_01: And so, so yeah, so, so stop and get your army around you to support you. And they will, and they
[13:44] SPEAKER_01: will surprise you in how they react and be incredibly supportive. I'm sure.
[13:50] SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that. I think one of the things you said that really, I want to highlight
[13:57] SPEAKER_00: is the idea that when you were sitting in meetings and you'd be thinking, I don't remember that,
[14:03] SPEAKER_00: you know, sort of memory, brain fog, memory disconnects, whatever you want to call it.
[14:09] SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people overlook that as a symptom of something bigger. Yeah, I think, right,
[14:14] SPEAKER_00: you're just like, I'm a little too tired and have a coffee today. It's just been a busy day.
[14:19] SPEAKER_00: And we don't recognize that that is a sign of something bigger going on quite often. So, I
[14:25] SPEAKER_00: love that you brought that up specifically because I there are a lot of people that have those
[14:32] SPEAKER_00: moments. And it's not until it's way past the point that they even think about it as a symptom.
[14:37] SPEAKER_01: Unless you're pregnant, which that happens a lot. But yeah, 100%. And that's why I bring it up is
[14:47] SPEAKER_01: because I think you need to look for those subtle cues. And it doesn't, like, it's not a dramatic
[14:58] SPEAKER_01: thing. It's not like a, you don't get like a sticker on your forehead. Like, I'm burnt out. Like,
[15:05] SPEAKER_01: it's it's not something that happens. Like, it's it's and there's different degrees. But it could
[15:12] SPEAKER_01: be as subtle as just like, yeah, your memory giving up a little. If you, I'm going to ask two
[15:20] SPEAKER_00: questions. We're going to start with this one. If you think back to before you recognize that you
[15:26] SPEAKER_00: were burnt out, when you think back to that, can you see a pattern of build up to get to that point
[15:31] SPEAKER_00: that you were ignoring? Or was it longer term versus shorter term sort of thing? And if so,
[15:37] SPEAKER_00: how did it escalate for you or what was your experience with that? Yeah, that's a great question.
[15:43] SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've felt this way. Like the adrenaline feeling of like, oh my god, like,
[15:52] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to the next meeting and like your go go go go go. And like for me, it was, I'm going
[15:57] SPEAKER_01: to the next meeting in London. I'm going to the next meeting in San Francisco. Like, I'm going
[16:01] SPEAKER_01: to the next like, I was going hotel room to hotel room to, you know, meeting to meeting to like
[16:08] SPEAKER_01: large conversation to another. I was juggling like at that time, I was actually living 50% in Toronto,
[16:16] SPEAKER_01: 50% of the US in New York. It was nuts. And I will tell you, I probably was for a good period of 18
[16:24] SPEAKER_01: months on that adrenaline. Like, go go go. And it's such a thrilling feeling. It's probably the
[16:31] SPEAKER_01: most exciting feeling like you're just, you're happy, you're excited, you're like everything's
[16:38] SPEAKER_01: amazing. But you have to stop and realize it's so unsustainable, right? Like your body is working
[16:45] SPEAKER_01: on high for drive. So yeah, so like the contrast now of, you know, stay at home orders is really
[16:53] SPEAKER_01: showed me that like, you know, there's what was that life I was living. There's no way that someone
[17:01] SPEAKER_01: could stay like that. So I think in the end, that might have been the biggest one is like that.
[17:08] SPEAKER_01: And then the other one I would point out is negative self thoughts. So I often tell people like,
[17:14] SPEAKER_01: think back about your internal dialogue for the last hour. And how many of that of the thoughts
[17:23] SPEAKER_01: that were going through your mind were positive and how many were negative. And I'd say like, as
[17:29] SPEAKER_01: much as I was excited about everything, I was executing so fast that I was like totally negative
[17:36] SPEAKER_01: in my head, right? Like in my head, I was like, oh, you're so silly you forgot your passport or,
[17:43] SPEAKER_01: oh, you're so silly you like miss that street quarter. Or like you didn't say this in your meeting.
[17:50] SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so that's another sign too. So that adrenaline rush, which was long and the negative self thought.
[17:59] SPEAKER_00: I think that adrenaline is great. It does so many wonderful things for us. And we are not meant to
[18:06] SPEAKER_00: operate in that state of heightened adrenaline for any period of time. We're just not. Our bodies can't
[18:12] SPEAKER_00: handle it. You know, it creates all kinds of signal issues for us physically, let alone, you know,
[18:18] SPEAKER_00: inside of our brains. So I think that that's a really great point. I last year I traveled over six
[18:25] SPEAKER_00: months, I'd tend normal, normal years I traveled for speaking quite a bit. And so last year I was out
[18:29] SPEAKER_00: of the country for more than six months. And I came back at the mid-November. And then I don't
[18:37] SPEAKER_00: think I traveled until the beginning of January. And I was like, those like six weeks of no traveling,
[18:41] SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, I need to, I need to find a better balance going forward. So I can't imagine
[18:46] SPEAKER_00: 18 months living in two locations plus traveling top of that. It's a lot. It's unsustainable. And
[18:54] SPEAKER_00: and kudos to you for recognizing at a certain point and the joy of pandemic year is being able
[19:00] SPEAKER_01: to stay a bit more settled. It's fun. Lots of fun. I will, you know, I can write a book about it,
[19:07] SPEAKER_01: I think, but yeah, at one point it fits its head. And I think that's the challenge is that it is
[19:14] SPEAKER_00: fun in the moment. And I think that that's often what precedes burnout to what you're saying is
[19:18] SPEAKER_00: that in the moment, it feels fun because you're traveling and explore. I mean, it travels the
[19:23] SPEAKER_00: example here, but closing big deals, whatever your version of that is, it feels fun and exciting in
[19:29] SPEAKER_00: the moment. And we don't give ourselves the opportunity and moment to rest between or to pull back
[19:35] SPEAKER_00: between. It just becomes the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And that's where it becomes
[19:39] SPEAKER_00: unsustainable. And I wanted to touch on the negative self-talk that you talked about as well,
[19:45] SPEAKER_00: because most of us have those conversations, thoughts, processes running through our heads,
[19:52] SPEAKER_00: just on an auto loop subconsciously. We're not thinking of it because our brains are,
[19:57] SPEAKER_00: we're, they're meant to be wired for negativity to keep us safe. And our brain is not smart enough
[20:03] SPEAKER_00: to distinguish between thoughts, keeping us safe versus a real attack, right? And I, it's
[20:09] SPEAKER_00: challenging for people to even recognize that that's happening. So I think your suggestion of
[20:16] SPEAKER_00: think back to the last hour is a really great one because then it's not think about your negative
[20:21] SPEAKER_00: thoughts in general. So the question I would have for you is, I have two. The first question is,
[20:28] SPEAKER_00: do you have any other suggestions for, for founders who are struggling or feeling like they might be
[20:34] SPEAKER_00: on the edge of burnout that worked for you or that you have seen work for other people? And then the
[20:40] SPEAKER_00: second question is, besides stay at home orders for the pandemic, how do you think you will change your
[20:48] SPEAKER_00: approach going forward to ensure that it doesn't happen to you again? Yeah. So I'll get really specific
[20:54] SPEAKER_01: on like coping mechanisms. I think that's, that's important. So I really fell in love with meditation
[21:02] SPEAKER_01: throughout my struggle. So like, you know, everyone probably knows some level about meditation,
[21:09] SPEAKER_01: but the beauty about meditation is that if you do it well, and it's actually like, I took a teacher
[21:16] SPEAKER_01: training because I wanted to get really good at it. And it's not that hard to get good at it. Like,
[21:22] SPEAKER_01: you just got to dedicate the time. But if you get good at it, what it actually does is it allows you
[21:30] SPEAKER_01: not to think for a period of time. And whether that's one minute, two minutes, five minutes of not
[21:40] SPEAKER_01: thinking, it is literally the most regiuven eating feeling in life, especially as someone who's go,
[21:48] SPEAKER_01: go, go, go, go. So my meditation routine is typically at the end of the day because in the
[21:54] SPEAKER_01: morning, I'm like, I'm so excited to get going. I want to get to my to do this. I want to get
[21:58] SPEAKER_01: things done. But when I need to transition into like home life, um, at the end of the day, I need a
[22:06] SPEAKER_01: moment to let go of all of these other thoughts and have a minute not to think. And once you've trained
[22:12] SPEAKER_01: your brain, not to think for a period of time, there's just an element of relaxation that goes in.
[22:20] SPEAKER_01: And it allows you to really like separate new days. So really, really highly suggest meditation.
[22:28] SPEAKER_01: I also suggest you auditing your calendar, like really, really intensely. I have a routine
[22:36] SPEAKER_01: where on Sundays, which you know, for most people working working, um, you know, so people would say,
[22:43] SPEAKER_01: don't work on weekends. I say you should work on the weekend for not a long time, but probably
[22:48] SPEAKER_01: one to three hours. Ed minimum, like 30 minutes to go ahead and audit your week. Um, and take a look,
[22:58] SPEAKER_01: my, I'm looking at my calendar right now on the southern screen and I'm looking at it and it's
[23:02] SPEAKER_01: really, really packed, right? And what, what you want to look for is what are the meetings I have
[23:09] SPEAKER_01: this week? What are the tasks that need to be completed in order for that meeting to be productive?
[23:15] SPEAKER_01: Do I have time in my calendar to prepare for that meeting? Do I need any other things? Do I need
[23:22] SPEAKER_01: other people to help me get prepared? Um, and ultimately make time to say, oh, if we were
[23:30] SPEAKER_01: traveling to a place, do I have the 15 minutes to get there? And if it's, if I only have 15 minutes,
[23:37] SPEAKER_01: can I make that 45 minutes so I can walk through Brian Park and look around, right? Like,
[23:43] SPEAKER_01: so audit your calendar, make sure it's taking, it's taking into account any stressful situations you
[23:50] SPEAKER_01: might be in. Because like how many times do you schedule things back to back and we're like,
[23:55] SPEAKER_01: I'll be 15 minutes late, I'll jump into a cab, right? Like that is not, that is not helping your mental
[24:03] SPEAKER_01: health. So audit your calendar is my, is my, my other things. Nice.
[24:08] SPEAKER_00: Well, I actually want to, I love that and I think that in pandemic times, people have become much
[24:14] SPEAKER_00: worse at auditing their calendar and, and are backing things up on each other way more than they would
[24:19] SPEAKER_00: even before this. And I think that that is really important now in general, but now especially
[24:27] SPEAKER_00: because people are like, oh, well, I'm home anyways, I might as well just do call after call
[24:30] SPEAKER_00: after a meeting after a meeting. And that's, that is a recipe for burnout. It is, it is. And yeah,
[24:36] SPEAKER_01: it's just not normal. And like we're seeing so many people like eating lunch at their
[24:43] SPEAKER_01: desk. It's like you're literally home. Like you should be using, you should be doing a load of
[24:48] SPEAKER_01: laundry at the same time. I'm like, you should be enjoying, but we're not. So yeah, so those are
[24:54] SPEAKER_01: my tips and to your point about like what will I do differently now? Like that I've gone through
[25:01] SPEAKER_01: the pandemic, I think like travel for my husband and I is like, we've had this conversation. Like
[25:07] SPEAKER_01: it's just, it's just going to be very different. So like the ratio at which I will decide that this
[25:16] SPEAKER_01: needs to be an in-person meeting will probably be like, they're the criteria is will probably be
[25:22] SPEAKER_01: much higher, right? Like there's literally people like, what are my investors would be like, oh,
[25:29] SPEAKER_01: why don't you come to London? So you can meet this person like that is illogical.
[25:36] SPEAKER_01: Let's meet on a Zoom call. And I think that like, I think that a lot of people are going to
[25:41] SPEAKER_01: are going to change that. And I think that that's really positive. And yeah, I think my appreciation
[25:49] SPEAKER_01: for the importance of work like balance as a leader has also really been huge change. I've
[25:56] SPEAKER_01: always been like super transparent about like my struggles and honest about like, you know,
[26:01] SPEAKER_01: the importance of balance. But when the pandemic hit and our company got busier,
[26:08] SPEAKER_01: everyone's lives was completely changed, right? You're either having kids that are in and out of
[26:16] SPEAKER_01: school or you have, you're living alone and you're feeling really lonely or God forbid someone
[26:24] SPEAKER_01: you know, you know, got sick, right? Like so there's all these things that people are dealing with
[26:30] SPEAKER_01: and have been happening at the same time as them getting busier at work. Yeah, it's really
[26:37] SPEAKER_01: pushed us to think about how are we going to be as a company supporting our two members? And
[26:43] SPEAKER_01: it's exciting like it's exciting to see that shift. It's not just in our company and seeing
[26:50] SPEAKER_01: the conversations happen in every company. It's okay now to say it's okay to block off like
[26:59] SPEAKER_01: lunch with kids, right? In your calendar and it's I I saw that when my colleagues
[27:09] SPEAKER_01: calendars and I was so excited about it because I was like he feels comfortable doing that
[27:16] SPEAKER_01: you know, organizations. So yeah, I love it. I love that part.
[27:22] SPEAKER_00: And I think you're right. I think it's going to I also am really excited that that's happening
[27:26] SPEAKER_00: in companies and that leaders are seeing the benefit and value in it. So truly thank you for
[27:33] SPEAKER_00: modeling it and sharing that with our audience because I think it's really powerful
[27:38] SPEAKER_00: to hear the story, to hear your story and how you have changed what you're doing and what
[27:45] SPEAKER_00: you know what that impact is now. So thank you very much for coming and sharing with us.
[27:49] SPEAKER_00: It's been really great to spend this time with you and I appreciate it very much.
[27:53] SPEAKER_01: Thank you. Thanks so much for your time.