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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Canada's Podcast.
[00:06] SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone, this is Gloria, hosting 4BC British Columbia Canada's Podcast.
[00:11] SPEAKER_01: And today we have a special guest, Jonathan Harvey, he's the CEO of 9MELT PR.
[00:19] SPEAKER_01: And Jonathan, before we start your interview, one you should introduce yourself,
[00:23] SPEAKER_01: but before not to mention that you're entrepreneur and journalist, who is Jonathan Harvey?
[00:29] SPEAKER_03: Oh wow, there's a lot to get into. Thanks for having me, Claudia.
[00:33] SPEAKER_03: So I guess I'll try to keep this brief.
[00:36] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm a former journalist turned marketing, want turned PR pro.
[00:43] SPEAKER_03: 9MELT PR is the PR agency that I founded and run alongside a team of dedicated PR pros.
[00:50] SPEAKER_03: And yeah, like probably others in the industry, in the PR industry and marketing industry,
[00:57] SPEAKER_03: made the transition from news to PR and I've probably many lessons to impart from that journey.
[01:05] SPEAKER_01: And how was this transition when you're not more and more in an young's role for working with the PR and then,
[01:12] SPEAKER_01: of course, opening your own company as an entrepreneur?
[01:16] SPEAKER_03: Well, I can tell you one thing, it pays better.
[01:19] SPEAKER_03: So the, I don't know if you've been paying attention to the media industry in general,
[01:26] SPEAKER_03: but it's not a very, the industry has problems.
[01:33] SPEAKER_03: And it's not to say that I don't love journalists and journalists, because I do.
[01:38] SPEAKER_03: We were interacting with journalists all the time and I am probably the biggest news junkie around.
[01:44] SPEAKER_03: I read the news, I watched the news, I'm on Twitter all day.
[01:51] SPEAKER_03: And that said, when I got into it, like back decades ago, it was already clear.
[02:00] SPEAKER_03: Like the problems that the media industry was having in adapting to an online world
[02:11] SPEAKER_03: were already clear even when the internet was in its infancy.
[02:17] SPEAKER_03: And we've seen the collapse of newsrooms, the, you know, lots and lots of layoffs,
[02:23] SPEAKER_03: layoffs all the time, salaries are stagnant.
[02:27] SPEAKER_03: So, anyways, I had to get out, because, you know, it's not that you can't succeed in journalism.
[02:32] SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, there are people who do.
[02:34] SPEAKER_03: The top folks who are getting book deals and being, they're getting invited to TV panels.
[02:40] SPEAKER_03: They're doing great. Good for that.
[02:43] SPEAKER_03: I wasn't in that coat, in that cohort.
[02:49] SPEAKER_03: So, I think my, probably my work ethic and maybe business skills, it was a bit of a late bloomer.
[02:56] SPEAKER_03: So, around, you know, my mid to late 20 started transitioning into more marketing roles.
[03:03] SPEAKER_03: A friend of mine ran a, he was VP marketing for a software firm.
[03:08] SPEAKER_03: He says to me, Jonathan, I know you're a journalist.
[03:13] SPEAKER_03: Do you, you know anyone who writes press releases?
[03:18] SPEAKER_03: And I say, well, maybe, you like, what's, what do you need?
[03:22] SPEAKER_03: He says, well, you know, our agency in New York, they're, they're really expensive and they kind of suck.
[03:29] SPEAKER_03: We just want someone who can, you know, write for, you know, X amount and X amount was way more than I thought they were, they would be paying.
[03:37] SPEAKER_03: So, I was like, oh, well, you know, and I've seen 10,000 press releases.
[03:41] SPEAKER_03: I bet I can write one or a bunch. And I did. And they liked that.
[03:47] SPEAKER_03: And then they liked some other content writing I was doing for them.
[03:53] SPEAKER_03: And so that was my start in a range of marketing roles.
[03:58] SPEAKER_03: And I was, I was often doing journalism on the, on the side.
[04:03] SPEAKER_03: So, I started off working for community newspapers and freelancing for magazines.
[04:09] SPEAKER_03: And then I was West Coast editor for, for beta kit, a technology publication.
[04:16] SPEAKER_03: And anyways, gradually, I figured out that the people I worked with, whether, you know, on the marketing side of things, whether it was internal roles or consulting, the thing that they found mystifying and interesting and valuable was PR.
[04:40] SPEAKER_03: How to get them into the news, how to make them famous.
[04:44] SPEAKER_03: They couldn't, like they, they still a lot of, a lot of CEOs and a lot of companies think this is sorcery.
[04:51] SPEAKER_03: And as you probably know from, you know, when, when things are mysterious and you need some kind of weird expertise to do it.
[04:59] SPEAKER_03: And it's not something you can easily just outsource to some junior member of the team.
[05:03] SPEAKER_03: People all pay for that. So I thought, oh, you know, I should just do that.
[05:07] SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to focus on that because that seems to be the thing that they care about.
[05:12] SPEAKER_03: Even if I was only doing it for a couple of hours a week off the side of my desk, that was always the high demand thing.
[05:20] SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, cut to a couple of years later.
[05:24] SPEAKER_03: And the MyMeldPR agency is making tech companies famous all over the place.
[05:29] SPEAKER_03: We get them news coverage in USA today, Newsweek, Forbes, Fast Company, etc.
[05:35] SPEAKER_03: You want to get famous fast or slow, whatever whichever way you like.
[05:41] SPEAKER_03: We will do that for you.
[05:43] SPEAKER_01: That's amazing. And then what's like as you're saying, it feels like it was a natural process that you guys would be more related to tech industry.
[05:51] SPEAKER_01: How is this? I mean, because you were in the NLs, you were like reporting different kind of content.
[05:57] SPEAKER_01: But how do you get to the tech companies?
[06:00] SPEAKER_03: Well, there's a few reasons for this.
[06:03] SPEAKER_03: First is this, it was the easiest thing for me to transition to because some of the...
[06:12] SPEAKER_03: When I was transitioning into a more marketing heavy roll, I was still doing tech journalism.
[06:21] SPEAKER_03: So working with a company called TechVibes and then later beta kit.
[06:25] SPEAKER_03: And this was just... I can't say it made me rich or anything, but it was a good way to...
[06:36] SPEAKER_03: I could throw a lot of stories at them every week and they were happy with that.
[06:44] SPEAKER_03: Tech companies... maybe it's a little... the economy's got a little sideways in 2024.
[06:54] SPEAKER_03: Funding rounds are down, particularly in Canada, it's a mess.
[06:58] SPEAKER_03: But in the heavy days of not that many years ago, Tech was on fire.
[07:05] SPEAKER_03: They were hiring like mad.
[07:08] SPEAKER_03: Frankly, hiring too much. Like we saw the layoffs this year and last year with X and Google and Facebook and all these giant companies are trimming their workforces of people who frankly, a lot of them probably shouldn't have been there in the first place.
[07:26] SPEAKER_03: But in those days when I started my NLPR, Tech was on fire. I mean, it's still doing okay.
[07:34] SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure it'll rebound even more soon enough.
[07:39] SPEAKER_03: But yeah, from an economics perspective, like what industry I should focus on, taxing, like the thing, they have budgets and they're...
[07:50] SPEAKER_03: They're used to making big bets on explosive results.
[07:58] SPEAKER_03: And versus a small business of some kind or maybe a more traditional business.
[08:06] SPEAKER_03: It's not as easy to get results with PR. They often don't have budgets. Like a lot of PR Asian-South will focus on restaurants and lifestyle, which I understand there's a niche.
[08:20] SPEAKER_03: But it's also super competitive because a lot of PR pros just like working with those kinds of businesses that are fun.
[08:26] SPEAKER_03: And I guess, yeah, that was another reason why we focused on tech is just...
[08:35] SPEAKER_03: It's an opportunity for those who are not intimidated by nerdiness and technical mumbo jumbo.
[08:44] SPEAKER_03: And so that's something I'm perfectly okay with operating in this universe of software as a service, B2B this and that AI powered whatever.
[08:59] SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of technical jargon, which by the way, we... Like when we're pitching reporters, we take out the technical jargon.
[09:07] SPEAKER_03: But it's sort of understood, you have to be able to work with people who speak that kind of language.
[09:15] SPEAKER_03: That can be intimidating for someone who's used to just working with, let's say, you know, cool restaurants and night spots and stuff.
[09:23] SPEAKER_03: Which, and again, that's lifestyle, PR, kudos to companies and agencies that can make that work.
[09:31] SPEAKER_03: Because that's a... It's a valuable niche.
[09:35] SPEAKER_03: Hot spots need to get people in the door.
[09:40] SPEAKER_03: That's probably maybe a more expansive answer than you were expecting. There's more to it.
[09:44] SPEAKER_03: But maybe that kind of gets to the core of why we focused on tech.
[09:50] SPEAKER_02: Stay ahead of the game with our expert tips and strategies that will help your business thrive in a digital era.
[09:57] SPEAKER_02: Canada's podcast.com subscribe now.
[10:00] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's amazing. Actually, I know, like, through my mouth, PR as well, like, whenever I have this clients and all this interaction,
[10:07] SPEAKER_01: you have pretty much deal with the CLs and the entrepreneurs of some startups.
[10:12] SPEAKER_01: So I was wondering, how is this connection that you have as an entrepreneur, trying to show them the importance of having a PR agency?
[10:20] SPEAKER_01: Because as you're saying, it's a working progress.
[10:25] SPEAKER_01: You arrange awareness for brands, not just as something that you can measure and create a plan.
[10:30] SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, 100%.
[10:32] SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, this sort of ties into the philosophical reason of why we chose this space.
[10:40] SPEAKER_03: You know, beyond the economics of it or the ease of it,
[10:45] SPEAKER_03: we're trying to do something big, which is we are trying to help humanity flourish by helping the entrepreneurs and tech leaders
[11:00] SPEAKER_03: who are building the amazing products that make our technologically enhanced lives possible.
[11:09] SPEAKER_03: We're trying to help those people succeed.
[11:11] SPEAKER_03: So, let me break this down a little bit.
[11:15] SPEAKER_03: I come from an era like I'm definitely pre-internet.
[11:22] SPEAKER_03: So, back in the day, before computers really got big, a lot of the founders and tech leaders that we work with today,
[11:34] SPEAKER_03: back in the 60s, 70s, maybe they'd be working as engineers, maybe they'd be working as teachers or maybe part-time bookkeepers.
[11:45] SPEAKER_03: They had some good math skills, but maybe their social skills were just a little bit off-putting, so they had trouble finding work.
[11:52] SPEAKER_03: This was kind of the case for a lot of the most skilled, most talented, most analytically brilliant people in our midst.
[12:01] SPEAKER_03: There were a lot of people who were just not...
[12:05] SPEAKER_03: It wasn't quite, you know, let's hide this person in the basement, but they were misfits.
[12:14] SPEAKER_03: They had trouble fitting in, and they weren't recognized for their talents, and they certainly weren't economically rewarded for those talents.
[12:23] SPEAKER_03: Fast forward to the computer age, and these people can literally plug into an economy where their skills are very much in demand.
[12:34] SPEAKER_03: You know, if you can imagine a math teacher, let's say, from the 1950s or 1960s, today with a certain set of skills, maybe they are running the coding department for Amazon or something.
[12:49] SPEAKER_03: And they're making bank, you know, quarter million in salary to start, or maybe like, you know, they could be getting millions in salary and stock options and all the rest of it.
[13:07] SPEAKER_03: These people have huge potential for success, and so I want them to succeed because I like to see people succeed, but also because I like my cushy 21st century lifestyle of...
[13:22] SPEAKER_03: I can live online, and I can order anything I want, and I can live like...
[13:29] SPEAKER_03: Like, I basically have the lifestyle of a billionaire, even though I'm definitely not a billionaire.
[13:38] SPEAKER_03: So, and it's all thanks to these incredibly talented techy people who...
[13:43] SPEAKER_03: Well, okay, what if Amazon doesn't hire them? What if Microsoft doesn't hire them? And what if they have some entrepreneurial bent to them?
[13:51] SPEAKER_03: What if they want to strike out on their own? A lot of people who are good with numbers, good with code, good with systems are not so great at storytelling.
[14:00] SPEAKER_03: This is sort of their downfall. It's where even, you know, proud of the computer age, you know, this is stories sell companies.
[14:07] SPEAKER_03: This has always been the case. And whether you've got five competitors or 500 or 5,000, a story can help separate you up from the pack, and it can be the reason that you get the money as opposed to your nearest competitor.
[14:22] SPEAKER_03: So, we want these engineers and coders and other such people who maybe, you know, they're sort of...
[14:33] SPEAKER_03: Without the aid of a marketing person or storyteller or PR pro, they might be in a sort of a circular firing squad situation for...
[14:43] SPEAKER_03: Maybe that's not the best metaphor, but they're sort of sitting around a table with their fellow coders or engineers and just building a product that they think is awesome.
[14:52] SPEAKER_03: But they haven't actually talked to a marketer. They haven't talked to a customer. They just...
[14:58] SPEAKER_03: They have a lot of subject level, subject matter expertise in a particular area. They've been working in a particular field. They know how to build a product. They think there's a market for it.
[15:08] SPEAKER_03: They haven't talked to anyone. They haven't built out something. And if they don't have a brand, if they don't have a story, they can't stand out. They're going to be toast.
[15:17] SPEAKER_03: So, I don't want that to happen. I want them to be successful. So, that's...
[15:25] SPEAKER_03: And I love working with people from that space of technology. It's exciting. I often say new is the most important part of the word news.
[15:42] SPEAKER_03: And technology is inherently newsworthy and new. We're always thinking about new products, new features, new capabilities.
[15:56] SPEAKER_03: You think of... At the bleeding edge, there's Nurellink, basically telepathy. This is great. Self-driving cars.
[16:03] SPEAKER_03: This is wacky, wacky cool stuff. And so, that's why I love being into it. Sorry, that's been a wide-ranging answer, but there I go. I'm blabbing again. Go ahead.
[16:14] SPEAKER_01: Nice. It's like you're putting this pop line and people there usually are behind the scenes.
[16:21] SPEAKER_03: 100%. 100%. Now they get to be the stars. And they...
[16:26] SPEAKER_03: When they're famous, when they're in the news, if that's the differentiator, then more gets more.
[16:36] SPEAKER_03: The winner takes all in a lot of cases. And so, yeah, if there's nothing else separating you from nine other companies being in the news, the customers see that, investors see that partner see that.
[16:52] SPEAKER_03: It's very common for us when we're doing our weekly check-ins with a client for them to say, oh, by the way, you were just mentioning us getting to Forbes and Business Insider, et cetera.
[17:06] SPEAKER_03: We had a new customer who called us up, big customer, and they just signed. And they...
[17:16] SPEAKER_03: It's because they saw us in Forbes and Business Insider, and they've been thinking of doing something with us for like a year, but they just...
[17:26] SPEAKER_03: Dad never seemed like the right time, but then they thought, oh, this is a sign. This is a sign. I'm going to go back to their website and buy their thing.
[17:36] SPEAKER_03: So that often happens.
[17:38] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting because you're based in Vancouver, but you have clients and customers from everywhere, especially also in the US as well.
[17:47] SPEAKER_03: 100%. We love our American customers. And we love our Canadian customers too.
[17:53] SPEAKER_03: It's just that our American customers tend to have bigger budgets.
[18:00] SPEAKER_03: So this is sort of...
[18:02] SPEAKER_03: You know, when you look at the tech industry, there's been, frankly, a lot of bad news on welcome news in the Canadian tech industry.
[18:10] SPEAKER_03: The American tech industry is much, much bigger. There's more opportunity there.
[18:21] SPEAKER_03: There's more competitive.
[18:22] SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm right.
[18:23] SPEAKER_03: Say again.
[18:24] SPEAKER_00: What competitive as well?
[18:26] SPEAKER_00: Or competitive.
[18:27] SPEAKER_03: Yes, for sure. For sure.
[18:29] SPEAKER_03: I almost think the...
[18:32] SPEAKER_03: You know, when Canadians start companies, this isn't universally the case, but feel like a lot of them, their initial go-to move is...
[18:42] SPEAKER_03: Where can I get grants to grow my company? Like a government grant or a government program?
[18:48] SPEAKER_03: And I don't think that's how Americans think.
[18:51] SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, I'm sure Americans will not turn down free money.
[18:55] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, there's a huge counter example to my point with Elon Musk who is raking in...
[19:04] SPEAKER_03: I think billions at this point in subsidies from the...
[19:08] SPEAKER_03: For EVs. For Tesla.
[19:11] SPEAKER_03: Because, like, why would he turn down the money if the government's just going to shovel it at him?
[19:17] SPEAKER_03: Sure. It'll take it.
[19:19] SPEAKER_03: But, yeah, they're...
[19:23] SPEAKER_03: It's less of a...
[19:24] SPEAKER_03: It takes a village to build a business and it's more like, I'm going to get in mind.
[19:30] SPEAKER_03: I have something, or I know something that's a value.
[19:33] SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to get out there and I'm going to build something big.
[19:37] SPEAKER_03: It's just a different mindset.
[19:42] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, for the purpose of business, it's a useful mindset to have a bit more cutthroat.
[19:50] SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned, like, storytelling and how you use this in your job with this customers.
[19:57] SPEAKER_01: I was wondering how it was for you in the beginning of your career as an entrepreneur in mind-mouth.
[20:02] SPEAKER_01: How you use this in your own favor in order to get more customers.
[20:07] SPEAKER_03: This is such a good question.
[20:10] SPEAKER_03: So, let me break down what the process is that we use both for our clients and for ourselves.
[20:15] SPEAKER_03: Because it's the same kind of thing.
[20:19] SPEAKER_03: Well, there's strategy. There's proactive PR. There's reactive PR.
[20:24] SPEAKER_03: So, strategy is just...
[20:26] SPEAKER_03: Okay, what stories could I tell to whom?
[20:30] SPEAKER_03: Why now?
[20:33] SPEAKER_03: And you're figuring out...
[20:36] SPEAKER_03: And by the way, an important part of strategy is...
[20:39] SPEAKER_03: You don't have all the time in the world. You don't have all the resources in the world.
[20:44] SPEAKER_03: So, where are you going to make trade-offs?
[20:46] SPEAKER_03: Where are you going to make sacrifices in order to take a risk that you think you can get this reward?
[20:52] SPEAKER_03: So, strategy involves planning.
[21:01] SPEAKER_03: It's like, what are the most important stories that tie into something else happening in that industry?
[21:08] SPEAKER_03: Or something else happening out there in the world that we can tie in our company?
[21:16] SPEAKER_03: And we frequently work with clients that hire us.
[21:21] SPEAKER_03: And then it turns out, actually, they don't have new products that they can talk about.
[21:26] SPEAKER_03: They don't have a funding round, a big, a big sexy story that they can pitch.
[21:32] SPEAKER_03: But they do have expertise.
[21:34] SPEAKER_03: And they can talk about something that's happening in the news right now.
[21:38] SPEAKER_03: So, AI is a big thing. There's every week. There's something new.
[21:43] SPEAKER_03: So, let's say, OpenAI does something great. Or OpenAI does something really, really stupid.
[21:50] SPEAKER_03: Either way, maybe our client who's doing something with AI can say what they would have done differently.
[21:59] SPEAKER_03: So, some part of this is opportunistic. You're looking for where you can add your voice in.
[22:08] SPEAKER_03: And then proactively, it's about building your media list.
[22:14] SPEAKER_03: And it's not just every reporter in the world.
[22:17] SPEAKER_03: It might be just who are the five or ten reporters who might possibly care about X.
[22:24] SPEAKER_03: And then reach out to those reporters.
[22:27] SPEAKER_03: So, that's proactive PR. And then reactive PR.
[22:32] SPEAKER_03: You're probably familiar with this.
[22:35] SPEAKER_03: We use like quoted and we used to use a thing called HERO before.
[22:40] SPEAKER_03: Now, it's converted to anything called HERO.
[22:43] SPEAKER_03: We don't use it as much.
[22:45] SPEAKER_03: But there's a few other platform views where you can actually see the kinds of media opportunities that are out there for the taking.
[22:54] SPEAKER_03: Reporter, reporter is looking for an answer right now to a breaking news idea.
[23:03] SPEAKER_03: And if you get back to them fast with something good, no chat GPT answers, you will fail.
[23:09] SPEAKER_03: If you give them a chat GPT answer, we believe me, we've tried.
[23:15] SPEAKER_03: It doesn't work well.
[23:16] SPEAKER_03: Just give them an actually interesting fact.
[23:21] SPEAKER_03: And if you get back to them fast, it's something they want.
[23:25] SPEAKER_03: Maybe you get in.
[23:26] SPEAKER_03: And so we've used this mix of different processes.
[23:34] SPEAKER_03: We've used this for ourselves and for companies that we work with.
[23:40] SPEAKER_03: I'm not an AI expert.
[23:43] SPEAKER_03: In fact, I'm probably...
[23:47] SPEAKER_03: So I guess I'm best known now for not using AI particularly effectively.
[23:59] SPEAKER_03: Because I just using this process of reactive PR, responding to a media opportunity that was out there.
[24:07] SPEAKER_03: I think I was quoted in the Wall Street Journal a few weeks back about how we're not using AI at our PR agency because we tried it and it went sideways.
[24:19] SPEAKER_03: So there's things out there.
[24:21] SPEAKER_03: So by the way, that connects to another part of the strategy is, what is the thing you can say that's going to provide a bit of an on-ramp?
[24:36] SPEAKER_03: So that you can get to the part where you get to say the other thing that you really want to talk about.
[24:44] SPEAKER_03: And so that's where some of the value from these reactive opportunities comes in.
[24:48] SPEAKER_03: And certainly I use that in the Wall Street Journal quote, you know, it's nice to let people know that we're in the tech PR business.
[24:57] SPEAKER_03: So it works.
[25:02] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it feels like...
[25:04] SPEAKER_01: And the long run people that are done using AI would be like, are you unique because you're done using AI?
[25:11] SPEAKER_03: 100% like the AI is great.
[25:15] SPEAKER_03: And you get for other things, the sides answering reporters questions.
[25:20] SPEAKER_03: Like if I need, let's say, a quick media list.
[25:23] SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's ChatGBT or, you know, if it's great because it'll cycle through, let's say, 150,000 answers in two seconds and then write out a little summary.
[25:37] SPEAKER_03: And that's great.
[25:39] SPEAKER_03: And you would actually think that might be useful for reporters, but apparently not because believe me, we've tried.
[25:46] SPEAKER_03: We've thrown them something like 20 different ChatGBT answers at various points because clients were like,
[25:54] SPEAKER_03: gone too busy.
[25:56] SPEAKER_03: You know what I did this ChatGBT thing.
[25:58] SPEAKER_03: It basically said what I was going to say.
[26:01] SPEAKER_03: And they always get rejected.
[26:03] SPEAKER_03: Somehow the reporter sniffs it out.
[26:05] SPEAKER_03: And frankly, we sniff it out too.
[26:07] SPEAKER_03: Like we can tell a ChatGBT answer when we see it.
[26:10] SPEAKER_03: So that's probably, I know I'm dwelling on this way too much, but this is a big PR tip.
[26:18] SPEAKER_03: Don't use ChatGBT to answer reporters because it's a waste of your time.
[26:23] SPEAKER_03: It's a waste of their time.
[26:24] SPEAKER_03: They're not going to use it.
[26:26] SPEAKER_02: Discover the latest trends, strategies, and success stories in the ever evolving world of business.
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[26:35] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, at the end of the day, this person to person thing will all be the best.
[26:41] SPEAKER_03: 100%.
[26:42] SPEAKER_03: Because often they're looking for not just an answer of, you know, let's say, how does a business succeed?
[26:50] SPEAKER_03: Let's say it's sort of a general, you know, in the USA, the US economy has gone sideways.
[26:58] SPEAKER_03: What can companies do differently in 2025?
[27:00] SPEAKER_03: Could be a question or maybe a working title for a reporter.
[27:06] SPEAKER_03: And they're actually not looking for an answer that applies to everyone.
[27:11] SPEAKER_03: They want to know what you did.
[27:13] SPEAKER_03: Well, I can tell you, Steve, when we did XYZ at our company, sales went up 187% in two weeks.
[27:23] SPEAKER_03: So we knew we were on to something and we just, we doubled down.
[27:25] SPEAKER_03: We kept doing that.
[27:26] SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
[27:29] SPEAKER_03: Because your business is in a particular time and place, during a particular kind of customer.
[27:34] SPEAKER_03: And maybe the people reading this article think, oh, wait, I see how we could do that too.
[27:40] SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, what we're not in the same industry, but I see how that could apply with our industry.
[27:45] SPEAKER_03: We're just going to tweak this method this way.
[27:48] SPEAKER_03: And we're going to do that.
[27:49] SPEAKER_03: That's really useful.
[27:50] SPEAKER_03: The whole point of like, why are people so interested in the news anyway?
[27:55] SPEAKER_03: It's like, it's, it's, people are looking for clues about how to survive, whether in business or in real life.
[28:03] SPEAKER_03: That's pretty much it.
[28:05] SPEAKER_03: We are very focused on our own survival and reproduction and all the rest of it.
[28:12] SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, any information is useful.
[28:17] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, this is, this predates our era of smartphones and computers.
[28:23] SPEAKER_03: I've seen images of people on, you know, taking the subway train in New York in the 19, 20s, 1930s, something like that.
[28:36] SPEAKER_03: It's a bunch of guys in trench coats with, you know, fedora is like that.
[28:41] SPEAKER_03: They're all dressed exactly the same.
[28:43] SPEAKER_03: And every one of them is looking into a newspaper, just a long line of men standing, reading newspapers.
[28:50] SPEAKER_03: And they're like, the thing they're reading is, how do I survive?
[28:56] SPEAKER_03: How does my business survive?
[28:58] SPEAKER_03: What can we do that's going to, oh, there's a, I see sales are down in this.
[29:05] SPEAKER_03: Okay, we're going to sell less of that.
[29:06] SPEAKER_03: Or, oh, there's a war happening in there.
[29:08] SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, I'm not going to sell to those guys anymore.
[29:13] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[29:14] SPEAKER_01: Just as we are doing right now, like Canada's podcast, we are showing some stories from inspiring Japanese.
[29:20] SPEAKER_01: And you're using it as your own history history and to tell how they can use all of this background and this resilience you've been through.
[29:28] SPEAKER_01: So they can apply for their own lives as well.
[29:30] SPEAKER_03: 100% 100%.
[29:32] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, one other aspect of the PR process that a lot of the companies that we work with find useful outside of the brand building value, which is the thing they're really looking for is, you know,
[29:49] SPEAKER_03: this is how we're different from everyone else.
[29:51] SPEAKER_03: And here's the story.
[29:52] SPEAKER_03: And actually, there's a benefit that happens from the process internally as well.
[29:59] SPEAKER_03: And this can spin out.
[30:01] SPEAKER_03: It can provide benefits throughout the company's marketing sales and even product development through the process of answering reporters questions about products, about their business, about how technology works.
[30:20] SPEAKER_03: These CEOs and CTOs and COOs and whatever the leadership sees we, they're getting asked questions by reporters that maybe they've never answered before they've never had to answer before.
[30:35] SPEAKER_03: And a lot of the time the people I work with find this exhilarating, this is like, oh, I didn't even know I knew that.
[30:44] SPEAKER_03: But actually, I had something interesting to say.
[30:48] SPEAKER_03: And then they think, you know what, I didn't even know I knew that.
[30:53] SPEAKER_03: But because of that, I know that my team didn't know this.
[30:59] SPEAKER_03: And they need to know this.
[31:01] SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot of learning that comes from the process of just whether it's talking with us in preparation to talk to a reporter or talk to a reporter directly.
[31:13] SPEAKER_03: Ideas come out that absolutely change, you know, how products are going to get delivered.
[31:21] SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, maybe we should, you know what, now I think about it.
[31:25] SPEAKER_03: We should sell differently.
[31:26] SPEAKER_03: Oh, here's actually, here's a tagline that I should pass off to the marketing people.
[31:31] SPEAKER_03: I'm not a marketer, but I just came up with this on my own.
[31:35] SPEAKER_03: And it sound, I think it sounds cool. Let's let them decide.
[31:39] SPEAKER_03: So that's something that can come out of it.
[31:42] SPEAKER_03: I think it's a, it's a beautiful process.
[31:47] SPEAKER_01: It's interesting. It's talking about this learning process.
[31:50] SPEAKER_01: If there is anything that you know now that you use, you wish you had not before.
[31:56] SPEAKER_01: And first I get company, that would be old.
[31:57] SPEAKER_01: I have only noticed and maybe you can share with the people there starting their own company right now.
[32:03] SPEAKER_03: There are many lessons like that.
[32:07] SPEAKER_03: Number one, I think you can get caught up in the details of.
[32:16] SPEAKER_03: You know, you'll create a big plan of, I'm, we're going to achieve this target.
[32:22] SPEAKER_03: We're going to do this and we're going to do that.
[32:25] SPEAKER_03: As in war, all plans, you know, no plan survives for first contact with the enemy or with customers.
[32:34] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, you may have a plan to sell, let's say, to a particular target segment.
[32:40] SPEAKER_03: And then actually your first couple of checks, your first couple of payments come in from another industry.
[32:46] SPEAKER_03: And you're like, oh, well, actually those are our customers.
[32:49] SPEAKER_03: And so forget that plan goes out the window.
[32:52] SPEAKER_03: So the lesson here is you can plan, but be prepared to adapt very nimbly, be nimble.
[33:05] SPEAKER_03: Another, another thing that has come up that like I used to be very, I didn't want to pay for stuff.
[33:15] SPEAKER_03: Who wants to pay for things? Everyone wants things for free.
[33:18] SPEAKER_03: Truth is that the, the, the paid version really is worth it compared to the free version a lot of the time.
[33:26] SPEAKER_03: And if something an app or a platform or whatever it is, seems like, well, you just need that to operate the business and you can't do without it.
[33:41] SPEAKER_03: Like, for instance, with media, with media lists is a core thing that we need to do our job.
[33:48] SPEAKER_03: And I used to just record stuff in spreadsheets and it's impossible to make.
[33:52] SPEAKER_03: You need a media database and whatever costs, that's what it costs. That's, that's what your cost doing businesses.
[34:01] SPEAKER_03: So be prepared to pay for stuff, look for value, but you know, once you've found value, just go all in.
[34:11] SPEAKER_03: And I should mention, if I'm giving advice, all advice cancels out.
[34:18] SPEAKER_03: So there's going to be times where it's like, oh, you know, no risk, no reward.
[34:23] SPEAKER_03: You got to go for it. And then there's times where you're like, oh, I probably should have been more cautious there.
[34:28] SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, I missed the red flags because I was so eager to leave in.
[34:34] SPEAKER_03: Everything cancels out. I used to watch this by the way before Donald Trump became such a contentious figure.
[34:41] SPEAKER_03: He was, he hosted a show called The Apprentice.
[34:46] SPEAKER_03: And I noticed back then, I didn't know anything about business back then.
[34:50] SPEAKER_03: But I like to show, and every, every episode it was two teams would compete.
[34:57] SPEAKER_03: And they would get thrown in business challenge.
[34:59] SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, sell a house or something like that would be like one, one of the missions that they had.
[35:07] SPEAKER_03: You know, sell a house, not no one had real estate experience.
[35:11] SPEAKER_03: Okay, I guess I'm going to sell a house.
[35:13] SPEAKER_03: And every week, you know, Trump would contradict himself almost, almost every week.
[35:22] SPEAKER_03: Like the first week you'd be like, oh, you, I don't know.
[35:26] SPEAKER_03: You didn't really go for it.
[35:30] SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, you didn't put all your, you needed to put all your eggs into one basket.
[35:37] SPEAKER_03: You need to throw all your energy into this because no other method was going to work.
[35:41] SPEAKER_03: And that's why you failed. And that's why you're fired.
[35:43] SPEAKER_03: And then the next week, it would be the complete opposite.
[35:46] SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, why didn't you, you know, just sort of diversify your strategies?
[35:51] SPEAKER_03: Why did you go all in on that?
[35:54] SPEAKER_03: And it was, I think you can still watch the show.
[35:58] SPEAKER_03: But there's like other, the main idea is whatever advice I can give,
[36:07] SPEAKER_03: you know, it's like take it with a grain of salt.
[36:11] SPEAKER_01: Got it. And there is any book that you have read and think it's interesting to share it on an audience.
[36:18] SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to share two, two books that I frequently refer to.
[36:22] SPEAKER_03: One is Chris Voss.
[36:26] SPEAKER_03: That's the author.
[36:28] SPEAKER_03: The name of the book is Never Split the Difference.
[36:31] SPEAKER_03: It's a book about sales strategy, which I've used a lot.
[36:37] SPEAKER_03: And I have to say some of the advice has worked well for me.
[36:42] SPEAKER_03: Some of it has never panned out for me.
[36:45] SPEAKER_03: But without that book, there's certainly some types of sales strategies that I wouldn't even thought to have tried.
[36:53] SPEAKER_03: So that's a good one. It's actually about negotiation.
[36:58] SPEAKER_03: It's written by a former FBI hostage negotiator.
[37:03] SPEAKER_03: So you might think what's that got to do with sales? Well, a lot.
[37:07] SPEAKER_03: It's about negotiation. It's about what you can give up in order to get what you want.
[37:15] SPEAKER_03: And it's, I find it very useful.
[37:19] SPEAKER_03: One lesson from that book that I use a lot is it's a phrase that I use it for client management.
[37:30] SPEAKER_03: It's called, how do I do that?
[37:34] SPEAKER_03: And it's when the client or customer or prospect is asking for the impossible.
[37:41] SPEAKER_03: And you just say, well, that's interesting. I'd love to do that for you.
[37:47] SPEAKER_03: Here's just a thing. We usually do x, y and z.
[37:50] SPEAKER_03: It does a quite line up with what you, I don't think we're going to get to the thing that you want with using that method.
[37:59] SPEAKER_03: So how do you think we do that?
[38:01] SPEAKER_03: And either they will have the answer and they'll give it to you.
[38:04] SPEAKER_03: And great, you just learn something.
[38:06] SPEAKER_03: Or two days later, they'll come to you and say, Jonathan, we thought about it.
[38:12] SPEAKER_03: And we don't have an answer either. You know, just keep doing what you're doing.
[38:16] SPEAKER_03: And you know, just keep that up.
[38:19] SPEAKER_03: And forget I even mentioned that other thing.
[38:21] SPEAKER_03: Then the impossible demand goes away.
[38:23] SPEAKER_03: And the second book is called How to Have Impossible Conversations.
[38:29] SPEAKER_03: It's by Peter Bergossian and Peter Bergossian and David Lindsay.
[38:35] SPEAKER_03: I think that's the names. Or maybe Peter Lindsay. Maybe they're both Peter.
[38:39] SPEAKER_03: Anyway, the point of the book, how to have impossible conversations is it's how to, well, what it says in the title, but it's really how to deal with people who maybe have different leaf systems than you have just a, they trust different sources of information.
[39:04] SPEAKER_03: And if you're trying to change minds, if you're at which really like I as a PR agency owner and long time communications pro, I'm in the business of changing minds of I'm in the business of persuasion.
[39:21] SPEAKER_03: So oftentimes you're dealing with people you're talking with people who don't have the same background as you they they're their framework is a totally different framework.
[39:35] SPEAKER_03: They're not an alien, but well, they they kind of might as well be in some cases.
[39:40] SPEAKER_03: And so actually there's some great processes in there for, you know, how to ask questions and really it's it's a I think the heart of the book is around asking how do you know that or how do I know this?
[40:01] SPEAKER_03: It's it's how do we know what we know so that we can agree at least on the same set of facts and you know, so we're on the same page and then therefore come to some kind of conclusion about reality, whether that's business or frankly, I this book kind of having possible conversations.
[40:21] SPEAKER_03: I found it useful in business in conversations with friends at the bar with my wife, it's probably saved my marriage a few times.
[40:32] SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I highly encourage this book.
[40:35] SPEAKER_01: It's amazing like to embrace diversity right?
[40:39] SPEAKER_03: Yes, the most important kind of diversity diversity of thought because it's it's you know people think differently.
[40:47] SPEAKER_03: But you know, as long as we can all be respectful and you know have some agreed on ground rules, we can come to some positive outcomes.
[40:57] SPEAKER_03: I think they're you know, ideally we can have more of that whether people will probably think about politics. Yes, supplies to politics. Sure.
[41:04] SPEAKER_03: But in business and life.
[41:08] SPEAKER_03: It's like how can we have better conversation?
[41:11] SPEAKER_01: Thank you amazing advices and books.
[41:15] SPEAKER_01: Jonathan, I'm so glad that you're doing too. Thank you for having us.
[41:19] SPEAKER_01: I feel like it gave me a lot of insights and I hope it has done the same with all listeners.
[41:25] SPEAKER_01: People can connect with you the mind mind mind mind there dot com right? You're also linked in.
[41:31] SPEAKER_03: Yep, so it's my milled PR dot com is that's our agency's website. We're also on LinkedIn and I'm Jonathan Narvis.
[41:42] SPEAKER_03: You can find me on Twitter under Jane Arvy, but also there's the my milled PR Twitter.
[41:47] SPEAKER_03: There's the LinkedIn we're on there. We're on the interweave everywhere.
[41:53] SPEAKER_01: Just like the podcast. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you for all listeners.
[41:57] SPEAKER_01: We can listen to us and Spotify and also website and YouTube and we're hoping that you like it.
[42:03] SPEAKER_01: This is a story of amazing about Jonathan and I hope to see you soon.
[42:07] SPEAKER_03: Thank you for having me, Claudia. Thank you.
