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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's Podcast.
[00:06] SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm Mario Tonigusi, managing editor of Canada's Podcast.
[00:10] SPEAKER_01: Joining me today on Calgary's Podcast is Darby Lee Young,
[00:14] SPEAKER_01: who is founder and principal accessibility strategist
[00:19] SPEAKER_01: for level playing field.
[00:20] SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us today, Darby.
[00:23] SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:25] SPEAKER_02: It's a great pleasure to chat with you today.
[00:27] SPEAKER_01: All right, let's just talk a little bit about level playing field,
[00:31] SPEAKER_01: what it is that you do and what it is.
[00:35] SPEAKER_02: Sure, so level playing field is an accessibility consulting firm.
[00:40] SPEAKER_02: We work across the country in a bit in the state on accessibility.
[00:44] SPEAKER_02: So we review drawings for accessibility.
[00:48] SPEAKER_02: We do building audits.
[00:52] SPEAKER_02: We do festivals, music festivals, pop-up festivals.
[00:55] SPEAKER_02: All different things, including also accessibility plans
[01:01] SPEAKER_02: for our Accessible Canvas Act,
[01:03] SPEAKER_02: provincially and municipalities as well.
[01:09] SPEAKER_02: And just all areas of accessibility,
[01:11] SPEAKER_02: whether it's also being education seminars or teaching at UFC,
[01:16] SPEAKER_02: or just going in and having the conversation,
[01:19] SPEAKER_02: accessibility is a key component.
[01:22] SPEAKER_02: And there's so much more to it than just the way
[01:25] SPEAKER_02: we all share.
[01:27] SPEAKER_02: So trying to explain to clients and potential clients how important it is
[01:33] SPEAKER_02: to talk about inclusion and design spaces for all.
[01:37] SPEAKER_01: So tell me, like, who typically do you deal with?
[01:42] SPEAKER_01: Like you deal with like property owners and landlords?
[01:47] SPEAKER_01: Who are some of, I guess, the range of clients that you have?
[01:51] SPEAKER_02: We have a wide range.
[01:53] SPEAKER_02: So we have anybody from, yeah, from landlords to architects,
[01:59] SPEAKER_02: to space owners, to government.
[02:02] SPEAKER_02: It really depends on who is paying the bill, the starter.
[02:07] SPEAKER_02: So a lot of times we'll bid on our fees with architects,
[02:11] SPEAKER_02: or the government will come directly to us,
[02:13] SPEAKER_02: the federal government will come to us and ask us to bid.
[02:16] SPEAKER_02: Or like, per se, one of our biggest clients is University of Manitoba.
[02:22] SPEAKER_02: They came to us within RFP,
[02:25] SPEAKER_02: asked us to respond to audit the entire campus.
[02:29] SPEAKER_02: Accessibility, and we've been working on that project for the last couple of years.
[02:33] SPEAKER_01: And how did you start this?
[02:35] SPEAKER_01: And how did you get into this?
[02:37] SPEAKER_02: So I started level planfield in 2015.
[02:41] SPEAKER_02: I have cerebral palsy, so I get around mainly on my scooter,
[02:45] SPEAKER_02: but I also have a manual chair too in some aspects.
[02:48] SPEAKER_02: I was tired of not being able to go out and enjoy life,
[02:54] SPEAKER_02: and have fun with my friends,
[02:55] SPEAKER_02: and I was tired of always taking the time to have to plan,
[02:59] SPEAKER_02: and move stuff around,
[03:01] SPEAKER_02: and if somebody called and said,
[03:02] SPEAKER_02: let's go for dinner, we'd have to go to a regular spot instead of trying something new.
[03:08] SPEAKER_02: And so it was all about trying to mitigate those barriers,
[03:12] SPEAKER_02: and try and take them away.
[03:14] SPEAKER_02: We're never going to be 100% correct,
[03:16] SPEAKER_02: but at least we're making steps and strides with space owners
[03:22] SPEAKER_02: and architects to understand the difference of including somebody with lived experience
[03:28] SPEAKER_02: versus just building to code.
[03:33] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
[03:34] SPEAKER_01: And you did mention just briefly there,
[03:39] SPEAKER_01: it's not just about wheelchairs.
[03:41] SPEAKER_01: Like what other kind of things do you deal with in terms of accessibility?
[03:49] SPEAKER_02: Well, on the times too, we've got to look at both physical,
[03:53] SPEAKER_02: we've got to look at hearing, we've got to look at blindness,
[03:56] SPEAKER_02: but we've also got to look at the invisible ones as well.
[04:00] SPEAKER_02: So we've got to think of even autism and neurodiversity
[04:04] SPEAKER_02: and how people move throughout the space.
[04:07] SPEAKER_02: Ever since COVID, I think we'd all agree
[04:10] SPEAKER_02: that after we were shut in,
[04:12] SPEAKER_02: to now go out into public and be in giant spaces with a lot of people
[04:17] SPEAKER_02: can be very overwhelming.
[04:19] SPEAKER_02: And so working to make sure that everybody feels warm and welcome
[04:23] SPEAKER_02: within the spaces that they want to enter.
[04:25] SPEAKER_02: And frankly, Mary, you are temporarily able-bodied.
[04:30] SPEAKER_02: You're considered a tab.
[04:32] SPEAKER_02: So because sooner or later you'll end up like me,
[04:34] SPEAKER_02: whether it's age or you know, you cross the street,
[04:38] SPEAKER_02: you're all your ankle because you're texting at the same time.
[04:41] SPEAKER_01: Yep.
[04:42] SPEAKER_02: Or or it's a ski and a tree, you know, like,
[04:45] SPEAKER_02: because I'm a former ski racer.
[04:47] SPEAKER_02: So sooner or later you're going to end up like me
[04:50] SPEAKER_02: and the biggest thing for us is trying to design
[04:55] SPEAKER_02: so that and work with the architects and space owners
[04:59] SPEAKER_02: and stuff like that to understand the importance of it.
[05:03] SPEAKER_02: And that if you just build to code,
[05:08] SPEAKER_02: you're actually built.
[05:10] SPEAKER_02: The code is considered the floor, not the ceiling.
[05:13] SPEAKER_02: And there's so much more we could do to make the spaces inclusive of all.
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[05:28] SPEAKER_01: You know, as you look at this whole issue today,
[05:32] SPEAKER_01: is it more acceptable, I guess, in a sense that, you know,
[05:40] SPEAKER_01: companies and businesses, etc.
[05:46] SPEAKER_01: Are taking more time to address this and realizing the importance of this.
[05:53] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a huge component.
[05:56] SPEAKER_02: Like it's definitely come more to the forefront in Canada and the US.
[06:00] SPEAKER_02: They've had the ADA for years over 30 years.
[06:04] SPEAKER_02: So they know and in the American side, they're scared because, of course,
[06:09] SPEAKER_02: the American sue in Canada were starting to roll with the ACA,
[06:15] SPEAKER_02: which is only for federally regulated corporations.
[06:17] SPEAKER_02: So it's still got a long ways to go.
[06:20] SPEAKER_02: But more and more people are understanding that I'm an equal member of society too.
[06:26] SPEAKER_02: And that I've got money to spend.
[06:30] SPEAKER_02: So why not let me be a part?
[06:34] SPEAKER_02: I think one of the biggest misconceptions, though, is everybody seeing about certification.
[06:41] SPEAKER_02: And certification doesn't necessarily equal accessibility.
[06:46] SPEAKER_02: Because right now, you know, certification is a great starting point.
[06:53] SPEAKER_02: But there's a hundred times more things to it than for accessibility than there is just a snapshot of the day.
[07:01] SPEAKER_02: And that's a misconception that we're trying to clear up.
[07:05] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[07:06] SPEAKER_01: Now, what's the business case for this?
[07:10] SPEAKER_01: Like, obviously, obviously, there is the right thing to do part of it, right?
[07:17] SPEAKER_01: But also, like, you know, to be blunt about it, it makes business sense for a business to be more accessible, doesn't it?
[07:27] SPEAKER_02: Oh, 100%.
[07:28] SPEAKER_02: Because like I said, I've got money to spend just like you do.
[07:32] SPEAKER_02: I might walk a little funny or my scooter might want to make friends with your ankles.
[07:39] SPEAKER_02: But I still want to go to hockey games.
[07:43] SPEAKER_02: I still want to go to concerts. I still want to be out in a boat with my friends.
[07:48] SPEAKER_02: I want to go enjoy patios on 17th Ave.
[07:52] SPEAKER_02: All that, all that fun stuff.
[07:55] SPEAKER_02: I want to be a part of that.
[07:57] SPEAKER_02: And when we don't design for spaces that include everyone, then there's barriers.
[08:05] SPEAKER_02: And I'm really tired of being told, oh, sorry, just go to the back door.
[08:09] SPEAKER_02: We'll let you in there. There's a ramp because that's our loading dock.
[08:13] Speaker UNKNOWN:
[08:13] SPEAKER_02: Why can't I do that when you can go through the front door?
[08:17] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
[08:19] SPEAKER_01: And you know, I don't know if you've come across like a researcher or anything like that.
[08:26] SPEAKER_01: But, you know, for businesses and different places, you know, what is the cost, I guess, for accessibility?
[08:36] SPEAKER_01: Is it, is that one of the reasons they don't do it or?
[08:42] SPEAKER_02: Well, like anything now when you've got a project, the first thing to get cut is sometimes the interiors and then spaces.
[08:49] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[08:49] SPEAKER_02: And when you look at the accessibility, there's aspects, especially in washrooms and, and the difference between accessible washroom and any universal washroom in sizes and elements.
[09:01] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[09:02] SPEAKER_02: And yeah, a lot of the times people don't want to spend the money because they don't believe that people will actually use them, which is, which is a sad state of affairs now.
[09:16] SPEAKER_02: If you, if you think about it, usually if you incorporate the accessibility early in the design stage, so back down in like concept or as I call it, napkin stage,
[09:29] SPEAKER_02: then it can really be fluent throughout the project.
[09:32] SPEAKER_02: If all of a sudden you decide it design development stage for the architect world, which is just before construction, it's usually too late to incorporate it because those are change orders and stuff.
[09:47] SPEAKER_02: And I laugh every time I hear somebody say on time on budget, I'm like, mm, okay.
[09:54] SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
[09:55] SPEAKER_01: So Derby, what were you doing prior to this?
[10:00] SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm a former pair of Alpine ski racers, so I spent a lot of my years when I came out just the end of high school in the university, spent my years racing across the country and down the states and then ended my career actually down in, in Winter Park Colorado in an accident, which is fine.
[10:21] SPEAKER_02: And by that point, I had numerous concussions that we never checked for.
[10:27] SPEAKER_02: But ever since then, I've been very lucky because my father worked for hockey Canada.
[10:33] SPEAKER_02: And I have spent majority of my time in still today, volunteering in hockey and actually tennis, because I'm a family member who's a tennis player.
[10:46] SPEAKER_02: So I've spent, yeah, a lot of my time doing that and then also helping my mother.
[10:54] SPEAKER_02: She's got a company called Greenery Office Interiors, which is like Moss Walls and live plants and all that and like some of our major hotels and office spaces.
[11:05] SPEAKER_02: So that's been a ton of fun too.
[11:09] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm always curious about athletes, you know, that be, you know, and what they do afterwards. And I'm just curious, but from your perspective, what did you think you learned by being an athlete and by participating in sports that have helped you and what you're doing now in terms of a business?
[11:34] SPEAKER_02: I actually thank you for that question because for me as a person with the disability, if it wasn't for the sports, I don't know where I'd be.
[11:45] SPEAKER_02: So a lot of times when families of new children with CP or disabled children call up and say, hey, what do we do?
[11:54] SPEAKER_02: My first thing is get your child involved in sports so that they can be, you know, have friends, get out, meet people, do all that type of stuff.
[12:09] SPEAKER_02: And it's, for me, it's been a huge driver because it also taught me, you know, how to do things and how to focus, how to do quite a few things at once.
[12:20] SPEAKER_02: I'm a lot to ask you, which I probably am not so good at some things, but some things I'm really good at.
[12:26] SPEAKER_02: But it taught the drive, I think, you really learn the work ethic out of it.
[12:33] SPEAKER_02: And I find that, and I'm bad for it because I can work, you know, 16 hour days, depending to some days, because I just get focused and I roll.
[12:45] SPEAKER_02: But then there's Dave from like, oh my god.
[12:49] SPEAKER_02: But it teaches you, I think it teaches you independence to depending on the sport.
[12:55] SPEAKER_02: I'm the ski racer, so I had to ski on my own, though I had coaches.
[13:01] SPEAKER_02: But it taught you how to work with people.
[13:05] SPEAKER_02: It taught you a different mindset, and I think it truly is important.
[13:11] SPEAKER_02: And it's why I push a lot of families with children with disabilities into it.
[13:16] SPEAKER_02: Is it also gives a social factor.
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: You know, when you first started this, level playing field.
[13:33] SPEAKER_01: What were the biggest challenges in starting this?
[13:37] SPEAKER_02: Oh, 100% getting people to take me seriously.
[13:41] SPEAKER_02: Really?
[13:42] SPEAKER_02: The person with a disability.
[13:45] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[13:46] SPEAKER_02: A lot of like, are you serious?
[13:50] SPEAKER_02: But then I started to show some of the architects in Calgary, you know, what they were designing wasn't working, and then also they kind of stepped back and went, oh, you actually make sense.
[14:02] SPEAKER_02: It definitely took some time, 100% it took some time, but we are, you know, we're in our ninth year.
[14:11] SPEAKER_02: And we've done very well.
[14:14] SPEAKER_02: I now have 10 staff.
[14:16] SPEAKER_02: So we're working on different projects.
[14:18] SPEAKER_02: And I think the importance of people now starting to see it.
[14:23] SPEAKER_02: And as I keep voicing it, we just need to make sure that spaces are inclusive.
[14:29] SPEAKER_02: And we've had some major misses in the city, especially like the library, for example, which dialogue knows I talk about all the time.
[14:39] SPEAKER_02: Was not one of our projects, but when you walk in, like, even if you can figure out how to get in.
[14:45] SPEAKER_02: Then, then you see a grand staircase.
[14:48] SPEAKER_02: And yeah, we like stairs, but at the same time, that's not a warm and welcoming feeling.
[14:55] SPEAKER_02: And then the ramp was tucked away with no signage.
[14:58] SPEAKER_02: And the elevators are hidden.
[15:00] SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of things that have changed since it opened.
[15:05] SPEAKER_02: But it's that sense of, you know, building a community and understanding that people like myself are valued.
[15:14] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what, you know, when you do travel a bit, I understand.
[15:23] SPEAKER_01: But, you know, how would you read what you see in Calgary, what you see in Canada at other places, what it comes to accessibility?
[15:32] SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it's, it's very like across Canada.
[15:36] SPEAKER_02: There's some really good things.
[15:38] SPEAKER_02: And then there's some, what's going on here types of scenarios.
[15:42] SPEAKER_02: I think everybody's trying to work at it 100%.
[15:47] SPEAKER_02: I will say though, when I go to the States, it's way different because I'm treated as a human.
[15:53] SPEAKER_02: I'm not looked at like an alien, like, especially in Canada, people just don't know what to do in stores and stuff like that.
[16:03] SPEAKER_02: So it's, it's a really awkward scenario where in the States, it's, they're just used to it and they treat us like regular members.
[16:14] SPEAKER_02: So it's, it's a lot different that way.
[16:17] SPEAKER_02: But here's hoping as we start to see people transition more to understanding that, you know, we're out there.
[16:25] SPEAKER_02: We want to be involved. We want to work.
[16:28] SPEAKER_02: We definitely can't work if spaces aren't accessible because a lot of the time, especially in Calgary, our office towers are pretty awful.
[16:37] SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it's, it's the importance of trying to think, well, put yourself in my shoes.
[16:44] SPEAKER_02: What would you want to do?
[16:47] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly. So what do you obviously, you know, with a staff buttoned up and running a business that's pretty, pretty busy?
[16:57] SPEAKER_01: What do you do? What do you do outside of work to kind of relax and enjoy yourself?
[17:04] SPEAKER_02: Well, I, like, I'm on the Saddle Dome Foundation board. So I definitely go to the rank pretty much for every event that we have if I'm in town.
[17:15] SPEAKER_02: I actually kind of like that. I take, you know, especially going to the hockey games when we were playing, though the Wranglers are still in, which is good.
[17:23] SPEAKER_02: But, you know, that's sort of my relaxing time as much as I take clients. I kind of enjoy that.
[17:28] SPEAKER_02: But a lot of the times when we travel, I'm checking out different stadiums and arenas and different places.
[17:37] SPEAKER_02: And that's sort of my fun little thing. I'm taking venue school right now through IAM, which is the International Association for Vennu Managers, because how can you, you know, work in spaces when you don't truly understand how spaces work?
[17:56] SPEAKER_02: So I'm taking venue school and traveling around and every time we go somewhere trying to see a different space to see how they do it so that we can, we can learn.
[18:07] SPEAKER_02: And that's that somewhat of my passion and end down to trying to make things better for all of us.
[18:13] SPEAKER_01: Okay, then. And yeah, I guess, you know, it's funny you mentioned that because I wonder like when you travel around if you're noticing things and seeing things in a different way, right?
[18:29] SPEAKER_01: And, like, you know, because because I do a lot of business stuff and retail stuff, I'm always even on holidays. I'm looking at things and looking for ideas, right? And is that the way it is for you?
[18:47] SPEAKER_02: Oh, 100%. It's we're always looking for staff and finding unique solutions and suggestions for projects. And yeah, you can't turn it off. And as a lot of my friends would say after they find out with me for a couple of days, especially traveling, which is not ease.
[19:06] SPEAKER_02: 100% as I'm sure you've seen all the reports, the airlines and hotels and everything. They're kind of like you can't turn it off.
[19:17] SPEAKER_02: That's that's very true everywhere we go, but I, you know, make it a passion of mine. You know, we stop in a location. And I definitely go and try and find, you know, a museum or the theater or something to go check it out to see what's going on.
[19:34] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, that was wonderful. I appreciate you taking the time. Darby to speak.
[19:41] SPEAKER_02: No problem. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
[19:45] SPEAKER_01: All right. That was Darby Lee Young, who is founder and principal accessibility strategist for level playing field. I'm Mario Tonoguzi, managing editor of Canada's podcast today with Calgary's podcast. Thanks for joining us.
