Christine Hall Discusses How Traumas of Childhood, COVID & Racial Tensions are Creating an Impact

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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: It's VanCouver's Podcast on the Canada's Podcast Network.
[00:05] SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone, I'm Angela Faye, Hub Builder and Co-host of British Columbia's Podcasts.
[00:12] SPEAKER_02: Part of the Canada's Podcast Network, you've source for great insights from entrepreneurs
[00:17] SPEAKER_02: from across Canada.
[00:18] SPEAKER_02: We talked entrepreneurs who are making it happen here so you can listen, discover and engage.
[00:24] SPEAKER_03: Super excited to welcome Christine Hall with us today.
[00:28] SPEAKER_03: Christine Hall is a registered clinical counselor and she has her masters of art and counseling
[00:33] SPEAKER_03: psychology.
[00:34] SPEAKER_03: She is a practicing psychologist and I have the privilege of working alongside Christine
[00:39] SPEAKER_03: and a co-wrote in space.
[00:40] SPEAKER_03: So I've gotten to know her pretty well.
[00:42] SPEAKER_03: We're both Leo's, have the same birthday.
[00:44] SPEAKER_03: I know that she's super colorful so I look forward to introducing you to her.
[00:50] SPEAKER_03: Christine, welcome.
[00:51] SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
[00:52] SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me, Angie.
[00:54] SPEAKER_03: Let's talk a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey.
[00:57] SPEAKER_03: I always find it interesting when practitioners are managing their business independently as
[01:03] SPEAKER_03: an entrepreneur, as opposed to within a system.
[01:07] SPEAKER_03: So can you share a little bit about your journey?
[01:09] SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
[01:11] SPEAKER_01: Why do practitioners choose to work independently?
[01:15] SPEAKER_01: I have very strong beliefs around this.
[01:18] SPEAKER_01: A lot of systems are really slow to change.
[01:21] SPEAKER_01: That's something that I have always sort of struggled with.
[01:24] SPEAKER_01: I actually just recently wrote a blog on entitles.
[01:28] SPEAKER_01: We've always done it this way because that is a statement that drives me crazy.
[01:33] SPEAKER_01: And one we're dealing with things like mental health issues, you know, there's trends, right?
[01:39] SPEAKER_01: Right now we're dealing with the followed of COVID.
[01:42] SPEAKER_01: That's a trend.
[01:43] SPEAKER_01: So if we're going with protocols and procedures that were in place 20 years ago, they're
[01:48] SPEAKER_01: not really relevant now.
[01:50] SPEAKER_01: And so when we're working with systems like the health authorities and, you know, I
[01:55] SPEAKER_01: don't want to hack on the health authorities, but things are very slow to change.
[01:59] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if there's a trend with stuff with social media, with young people nowadays,
[02:05] SPEAKER_01: right?
[02:05] SPEAKER_01: These kind of trends can happen so quickly that by the time we get approval for the higher
[02:10] SPEAKER_01: ups of implementing, say, you know, a relevant group therapy program or something like that,
[02:17] SPEAKER_01: you know, that could have heard.
[02:19] SPEAKER_01: Right.
[02:21] SPEAKER_01: And so it's those kind of things that drive me crazy.
[02:23] SPEAKER_01: I used to work for youth and family agency in Couchin and I had a phenomenal, I have
[02:29] SPEAKER_01: to give her a blood, I had a phenomenal executive director there, Michelle Bell.
[02:33] SPEAKER_01: And what I loved about her is whenever I would come to her and it'd say, look, I'm noticing
[02:37] SPEAKER_01: this with the families I'm working with.
[02:39] SPEAKER_01: And it just seems more effective if I can get them all in one room.
[02:43] SPEAKER_01: And I can implement the same curriculum to everybody at the same time.
[02:47] SPEAKER_01: And you know, she they sure do you want to take that on?
[02:50] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
[02:50] SPEAKER_01: I'll take it on.
[02:51] SPEAKER_01: I'll write all the curriculum and, you know, within two weeks, I'd be able to deliver the
[02:55] SPEAKER_01: content.
[02:56] SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of stuff that I get really passionate about.
[03:00] SPEAKER_01: So I hate the roadblocks of working for systems within systems within systems that are
[03:06] SPEAKER_01: very slow to change.
[03:08] SPEAKER_03: And hence you've decided to work independently.
[03:11] SPEAKER_03: But let's talk a little bit about how you even decided to be a counselor.
[03:15] SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is a personal personal journey and story, is it not?
[03:19] SPEAKER_01: It is.
[03:20] SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot, there's sort of a lot of moving pieces as to what came together for
[03:25] SPEAKER_01: me.
[03:25] SPEAKER_01: My practice is called Black sheep counseling.
[03:28] SPEAKER_01: I've always felt like the outsider in my family, that Black sheep.
[03:31] SPEAKER_01: So I've always gravitated towards people in communities that have sort of been others
[03:36] SPEAKER_01: as well.
[03:37] SPEAKER_01: I became immersed in the queer culture at 15.
[03:40] SPEAKER_01: I used to hang out at gay bars at 15.
[03:43] SPEAKER_01: You know, which, you know, I don't promote that as young people to be hanging out in bars.
[03:49] SPEAKER_01: But really, the gift that that provided for me at that time was a sensible longing, right?
[03:56] SPEAKER_01: Because we were embraced.
[03:58] SPEAKER_01: It was me and a bunch of sort of alternative teenagers.
[04:01] SPEAKER_01: And we were really embraced and we felt safe.
[04:04] SPEAKER_01: You know, we were kind of the kids in the room and it felt good.
[04:08] SPEAKER_01: And it felt good.
[04:08] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, really we're all looking for that sensible longing.
[04:12] SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, you know, some young people do sort of have a tattoo towards gangs
[04:16] SPEAKER_01: for this exact reason, right?
[04:19] SPEAKER_01: Or towards, you know, drug culture for that exact reason.
[04:23] SPEAKER_01: So there's that piece.
[04:25] SPEAKER_01: And I always worked in environments too that were sort of like a little sort of fringy.
[04:29] SPEAKER_01: I worked in the film industry and back then in the early 90s, I'm aging myself.
[04:34] SPEAKER_01: I was the only female that worked in the art department at that time.
[04:38] SPEAKER_01: So again, I was kind of like on the outside and having to prove myself.
[04:42] SPEAKER_01: Or I got a job because somebody wanted to sleep with me.
[04:44] SPEAKER_01: And you know, there was always that kind of that extra step to prove myself.
[04:49] SPEAKER_01: The same thing with working in the bar industry.
[04:52] SPEAKER_01: I worked in the bar industry for a really long time.
[04:54] SPEAKER_01: And back then, there were no female bartenders.
[04:58] SPEAKER_01: I was told that I couldn't bartend because chicks cry.
[05:02] SPEAKER_01: And it's so funny.
[05:03] SPEAKER_01: You go into a bar now and it's predominantly females that are behind the bar.
[05:07] SPEAKER_01: But back then, it wasn't like that.
[05:09] SPEAKER_01: And so again, it was always like, oh, damn it.
[05:12] SPEAKER_01: Like I'm a bit of a social justice warrior here.
[05:15] SPEAKER_01: So as soon as something leaks of like discrimination, I'm right there.
[05:22] SPEAKER_01: And you know, being in the bar industry too, you meet.
[05:25] SPEAKER_01: You know, bartending is kind of like junior counseling anyways.
[05:29] SPEAKER_03: I have worked in many a pub and hospitality myself.
[05:31] SPEAKER_03: So I can relate absolutely.
[05:34] SPEAKER_01: And I like that.
[05:35] SPEAKER_01: And you know, one of the things that that taught me was I love to hear people's stories, right?
[05:40] SPEAKER_01: I always kind of felt like we can learn something from every single person that we need,
[05:46] SPEAKER_01: whether we want to or not.
[05:47] SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's something that we're seeking to learn.
[05:51] SPEAKER_01: But I think that just made me really interested in human beings and their story.
[05:58] SPEAKER_01: And the resiliency of the human spirit is really quite remarkable.
[06:03] SPEAKER_03: It is.
[06:04] SPEAKER_03: Well, and this is a good time to be talking about that.
[06:06] SPEAKER_03: I just want to ask a little bit about really your focused areas are trauma and couples counseling.
[06:13] SPEAKER_01: Traum and couples counseling, which there's a lot of crossover in that.
[06:18] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, a lot of couples sort of, they struggle with connection.
[06:22] SPEAKER_01: And it's because they lack the understanding of the other person's worldview, right?
[06:27] SPEAKER_01: So when we know better, I really feel like we can do better.
[06:30] SPEAKER_01: So if I understand that you, Angie, has a trigger around a certain thing or a certain behavior,
[06:37] SPEAKER_01: then I'm not going to take that personally when you get upset, right?
[06:41] SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to look at you and go, geez, what's your problem?
[06:43] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to go, oh, that's her thing.
[06:45] SPEAKER_01: Yes, she, you know, that she doesn't like dogs or whatever, right?
[06:49] SPEAKER_01: And so when I work with couples, oftentimes, I'll find out that, you know, maybe one of them
[06:55] SPEAKER_01: had a traumatic past or they had, you know, a childhood that was sort of, you know,
[07:01] SPEAKER_01: entrenched in chaos and stuff like that.
[07:03] SPEAKER_01: So those early life experiences really shape how we show up in later relationships.
[07:09] SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, when I can sort of work in both those worlds, I find that not just the relationship
[07:16] SPEAKER_01: between the couple is enhanced, but the relationship within oneself is enhanced because they start
[07:22] SPEAKER_01: to understand and they have more compassion for self and for others.
[07:26] SPEAKER_03: Well, one thing that you and I have sort of talked about over the coffee pot is maybe when there's
[07:33] SPEAKER_03: not quite such a self-awareness is always a challenge. So you might not know what your triggers are
[07:40] SPEAKER_03: or what you might need is when you get triggered, you need the other person to step up and actually not
[07:47] SPEAKER_03: be empathetic as opposed to confrontational or saying that's not what I need when you're being triggered.
[07:55] SPEAKER_03: How do you navigate that as a counselor?
[07:59] SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's something that I'm laughing a little bit because the concept of boundaries
[08:04] SPEAKER_01: always comes up, right? Whether it's personal work or it's in couples therapy. And what if somebody,
[08:11] SPEAKER_01: you know, hasn't learned how to assert healthy boundaries and that's the journey that we're on is
[08:16] SPEAKER_01: learning healthy boundaries. It's always funny because if you have loose boundaries or really
[08:21] SPEAKER_01: rigid boundaries and then we start to unpack this, oftentimes people will go to the opposite end
[08:27] SPEAKER_01: of this backdrop. It's like if you were saying yes to everybody, all of a sudden you're like, no,
[08:32] SPEAKER_01: hard no, hard no. I do think that we need to have a little bit of grace and humor with this because
[08:39] SPEAKER_01: it is a learning process. It's sort of like when people quit smoking, they're the hardcore,
[08:43] SPEAKER_01: don't smoke around these people, right? And to just recognize that it is a process, right?
[08:50] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's kind of like Goldilocks. We're trying to figure it out. We were a little too much
[08:54] SPEAKER_01: in this area. And maybe now, right now, we're sort of exploring the opposite side. And then we're
[09:00] SPEAKER_01: going to try to figure it out what feels right and connecting that. Am I doing a hard no because I've
[09:06] SPEAKER_01: decided I'm asserting healthy boundaries? Or is it am I? No, is it? You know what? Actually, I'm okay
[09:12] SPEAKER_01: with that. Yesterday I wasn't, but I've checked in with myself and my body sensation and I'm okay
[09:19] SPEAKER_01: with saying yes today. So just because we said no tomorrow doesn't mean that we, you know, boundaries
[09:24] SPEAKER_01: are so flexible and fluid that they change all the time. You know, what's what's fine one day might
[09:30] SPEAKER_01: not be the next day because, you know, your kid was sick all night and you're sleep deprived.
[09:35] SPEAKER_03: And I guess that's bringing in context and of what's happening around you and how you respond to
[09:41] SPEAKER_03: things, which I think is app timing to jump in. You and I were talking about I'm just going to read
[09:48] SPEAKER_03: sort of a little bit of dialogue between us about the importance of, you know, being in a tribe,
[09:55] SPEAKER_03: which we talked about the gangs, the group that where you can feel comfortable and be yourself.
[10:00] SPEAKER_03: But when we're looking at behaviors that are rooted in shame or attacking other people
[10:07] SPEAKER_03: to discharge pain and shame, I wanted to talk about that a little bit today because,
[10:12] SPEAKER_03: as you and I discussed earlier, is, you know, sometimes you're the one going through shame or pain or
[10:19] SPEAKER_03: guilt and you need your tribe to sort of step up and support you in those moments.
[10:25] SPEAKER_03: The challenge in this day and age today and I understand that this too shall pass, but today is
[10:31] SPEAKER_03: everybody is experiencing some level of pain and shame in this post-COVID era or in it,
[10:40] SPEAKER_03: sorry, not post-COVID, we're in this COVID era where there's massive disruption.
[10:46] SPEAKER_03: So whether it's, you know, parents now having to take on role of teachers and, you know, time,
[10:53] SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's just more being dealt with, you're working for home, you're having to deal with
[10:58] SPEAKER_03: the partner more hours than a day than you might be comfortable with, to first responders,
[11:04] SPEAKER_03: to healthcare practitioners like yourself who are, you know, really dealing with a different
[11:09] SPEAKER_03: level of intensity and but everybody's going through it. So how to cope and how to put some
[11:18] SPEAKER_03: context from your perspective around how to behave so that we're not sort of discharging shame and blame
[11:25] SPEAKER_03: and keeping some personal accountability in this role, I call it the COVID-Coster time.
[11:32] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I have lots to say about this. So I think one of the first things is to recognize that
[11:41] SPEAKER_01: this COVID thing is inducing fear because it's uncertainty. The reality is life is really
[11:48] SPEAKER_01: full of uncertainty but this is particularly, you know, it's right in our face uncertainty.
[11:55] SPEAKER_01: Well, we ever get to go on vacation again, will we ever get to be in the classroom again?
[12:01] SPEAKER_01: Can we hug our loved ones? Like, you know, there's a lot of pieces to that and when we,
[12:06] SPEAKER_01: you know, when we've gone through trauma and when we have scary things happen, there can be a real
[12:14] SPEAKER_01: desire for certainty like right wrong, black white, you know, I'm rejecting all of the advice from
[12:24] SPEAKER_01: the health professionals with COVID or oh my god, I'm calling out everybody in my building because
[12:30] SPEAKER_01: they're not following the rules, right? So I think it's good to recognize that this is fear
[12:37] SPEAKER_01: induced behavior, right? When somebody comes at us, you know, anger is generally a secondary
[12:43] SPEAKER_01: emotion. So anger is an intense reaction to an unmet need. But now we have a lot of a similar
[12:50] SPEAKER_01: unmet needs around we want safety and security. Those are basic needs, right? And we don't have that.
[12:58] SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, instead when somebody comes at us with anger, our response is anger, right?
[13:03] SPEAKER_01: So if you came at me with anger, I'd be like, where does she get off, right? It makes us defensive.
[13:09] SPEAKER_01: But if you came at me and said, you know, gosh, I am just so scared right now. Of course, I wouldn't
[13:15] SPEAKER_01: respond to you in anger. So it's sort of zooming out a little bit and recognizing that when we get
[13:22] SPEAKER_01: these sort of angry outbursts from people and there's so much of it right now, so much of it with
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: whether, you know, you're doing this for COVID and the other person isn't the Black Lives Matter.
[13:33] SPEAKER_01: You know, all of these biases and race wars that are kind of going on, right?
[13:38] SPEAKER_01: Is recognizing and, you know, we all get triggered. I get triggered too. I get triggered too.
[13:44] SPEAKER_01: I'm a fear social justice warrior. So I get, you know, I recognize that in myself. So recognizing
[13:50] SPEAKER_01: your own stuff is a big piece of it, right? I'm being first. I'm a therapist, but I'm a human being
[13:56] SPEAKER_01: first. You know, I have my own emotional reactions to stuff. So it's, it's, you know, being curious
[14:03] SPEAKER_01: about what's going on for you, right? Resisting the desire for certainty and just recognizing that,
[14:10] SPEAKER_01: you know, we're all in this place of uncertainty. And can we lean into the discomfort a little bit
[14:16] SPEAKER_01: with some grace and recognize that if we're scared, then our neighbors, you know, stand to reason
[14:24] SPEAKER_03: our neighbors scared too. Well, and that's something that, you know, and I just want to acknowledge that,
[14:31] SPEAKER_03: you know, for those families and people that are directly impacted by COVID from a health
[14:35] SPEAKER_03: perspective. And, you know, I'd like to acknowledge them. And my heart goes out to them as well.
[14:41] SPEAKER_03: You know, touch wood, I have not been directly impacted from a health perspective with COVID. So,
[14:47] SPEAKER_03: you know, the, the intense fear factor isn't there for me because I haven't visualized it other
[14:51] SPEAKER_03: than what's on TV in the media. But yeah, I am constantly shocked when I have a conversation on Zoom,
[14:59] SPEAKER_03: mostly with friends internationally in Australia and the UK and the US is everybody is impacted.
[15:06] SPEAKER_03: Either their jobs are part time or their job structure has completely changed. They're remote
[15:12] SPEAKER_03: working. They're feeling isolated. They're fighting with a partner or they're struggling with
[15:15] SPEAKER_03: parenting. Like I said, all those, all those things is everybody is directly impacted.
[15:20] SPEAKER_03: One thing that you mentioned earlier that I'd love you to touch on is the call-up culture.
[15:26] SPEAKER_03: What does that mean? And how can we try that? So, that might mean that I'm scrolling on social media
[15:32] SPEAKER_01: and I see that you post something like, all lives matter. You know, I might have a different
[15:38] SPEAKER_01: response to that. But instead of pulling you aside and saying, hey, you know, have you considered
[15:44] SPEAKER_01: XYZ? Instead, I, you know, go on a tie-rate on your social media wall and, you know, shame the
[15:52] SPEAKER_01: crap out of you and tell you that you know nothing and how dare you. And so, you know, when it comes
[15:58] SPEAKER_01: to these kind of things, we're all learning and growing. I, you know, even before the Black Lives
[16:03] SPEAKER_01: Matter movement really happened this year, I mean, it's been going on for a long time. But when it
[16:08] SPEAKER_01: really sort of with George Floyd's death, I belong to a network of therapists called
[16:15] SPEAKER_01: Accelerated Experential Dynamics Psychotherapist. And it's a worldwide listservent I belong to.
[16:21] SPEAKER_01: And starting in about September, October, last year, we've had this ongoing dialogue around
[16:27] SPEAKER_01: white fragility. It has gotten heated. It has been absolutely fascinating and heartbreaking and
[16:36] SPEAKER_01: so informative. You know, it's, it's uncomfortable. There's people of all different cultures and
[16:45] SPEAKER_01: races, nationalities that are part of this listserv. And there has, you know, even amongst therapists,
[16:51] SPEAKER_01: there's been some of this call out culture. And, you know, I think that we have to lean into the
[16:57] SPEAKER_01: discomfort of being wrong because it's not like I have this belief. I know that some of the
[17:03] SPEAKER_01: belief systems that I, I have that are embedded in me came from the system itself. It came from,
[17:11] SPEAKER_01: you know, I grew up in a British household. I was raised in Canada. I spent a lot of time
[17:17] SPEAKER_01: living in the queer community. There's all of these things that impact our value and belief
[17:23] SPEAKER_01: system. We think that they're uniquely our own, but they're not. They're really not. And so if we
[17:29] SPEAKER_01: just step back and not tell somebody else what their belief system is or what their experience has
[17:37] SPEAKER_01: been or how it should impact them, if we can just actually listen with some compassion and some
[17:46] SPEAKER_01: and choose to uphold their dignity, you know, this is how we're going to get over these little
[17:50] SPEAKER_01: barriers. I do a lot of work with First Nations people and I can, I can tell you with 100%
[17:58] SPEAKER_01: certainty that every session I do with the First Nations person, I learn something. And oftentimes
[18:03] SPEAKER_01: it's heartbreaking, but I choose to lean into that discomfort so I can show up and do better.
[18:11] SPEAKER_03: I don't get it perfect. Could you elaborate on the concept of white fragility?
[18:16] SPEAKER_01: So it's just recognizing that if somebody, you know, a gay pride parade or, you know, a Black
[18:24] SPEAKER_01: life matter protest or something like that, where, you know, a white person may say, well,
[18:29] SPEAKER_01: aren't you over it yet? And this is silly. And, you know, we don't have this. And, you know,
[18:34] SPEAKER_01: well, that was my ancestors. And so I never own slaves. Well, of course you didn't. But
[18:40] SPEAKER_01: doesn't mean that we don't have systemic racism that still impacts all of us today, right?
[18:47] SPEAKER_01: And intergenerational trauma that impacts all of us today. When I first started unpacking this,
[18:54] SPEAKER_01: this staff I lived in the Cowachian community about 10 years ago and was working in the Cowachian
[19:00] SPEAKER_01: community. And I went through like a lot of shame. I really had to unpack a lot of stuff as more
[19:09] SPEAKER_01: information became apparent to me that I didn't know enough about Canada's First Nations history.
[19:17] SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that was part of me getting to the place that I'm at. And unfortunately,
[19:24] SPEAKER_01: that's usually what happens is we have to go through sort of this very uncomfortable,
[19:30] SPEAKER_01: holy crap. You know, not like, yes, I, you know, my parents, I'm First Generation Canadian.
[19:35] SPEAKER_01: My parents were colonizers, but we, their ancestors and their, you know, they were colonizers.
[19:43] SPEAKER_01: And I've, I've benefited my entire family has benefited from being here on Canadian soil.
[19:50] SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we need to recognize what that means and the sacrifices that other people
[19:56] SPEAKER_03: have had to bear. Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about Canadian culture. You,
[20:03] SPEAKER_03: one unique thing about the Canada's podcast is we interview entrepreneurs from across Canada.
[20:10] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we do have a unique culture here. So, and you're here on Vancouver Island,
[20:15] SPEAKER_03: you know, and there's different micro cultures within a community. Can you talk a little bit about
[20:21] SPEAKER_03: the opportunities and maybe challenges that you have in doing business? Let's talk maybe
[20:28] SPEAKER_03: first of all, Indie Nimo, which is your, your current community. And maybe even touch on Vancouver
[20:34] SPEAKER_03: Islander or BC in particular. So opportunities and challenges.
[20:38] SPEAKER_01: Whew. Well, I'm a city girl. And I've always lived in the downtown core of Vancouver. Mostly,
[20:45] SPEAKER_01: I lived in New York for a while. But I, I have found Vancouver Island quite a challenge. I,
[20:53] SPEAKER_01: I love it. And I was willing to sort of fight to be here. But I have to say I didn't find it easy.
[21:00] SPEAKER_01: I think that it's a hard community to make friends in. I hear this from a lot of my clients that
[21:07] SPEAKER_01: have relocated from somewhere else. I think it's a hard place to find a job. And so those,
[21:13] SPEAKER_01: those are legitimate struggles. I, I personally encountered and I hear from my clients as well.
[21:20] SPEAKER_03: And I kind of share that with you. I'm not sure what it is. Why? There's, and maybe goes back
[21:28] SPEAKER_03: in. Maybe that's why there's so many entrepreneurs here.
[21:31] SPEAKER_03: Out of necessity, right? Create our own job. Damn it. Exactly. What about opportunities that you've
[21:39] SPEAKER_01: seen that you've experienced? I, you know, I'm struggling on that one because I feel like
[21:44] SPEAKER_01: the opportunities that I've had, I've kind of created myself. You know, I had, I've had a very
[21:50] SPEAKER_01: clear vision of what I wanted for my practice. And, you know, I haven't necessarily been able to
[21:55] SPEAKER_01: find it here in Nanaimo, but I do, as you know, I do a lot of professional training. I'm a bit
[22:02] SPEAKER_01: of a training junkie. And so I create community, professional community that is all over the world.
[22:09] SPEAKER_01: And so that enhances my practice. I personally, and this is a shout out to other therapists. I would
[22:14] SPEAKER_01: love to have a community of therapists where we could do care supervision or get together once
[22:20] SPEAKER_01: a month and, and debrief and talk about trends and stuff like that. But I, I, I have that online.
[22:27] SPEAKER_01: But I would love to have it in person. And then network hub can accommodate that.
[22:34] SPEAKER_03: Actually, in yesterday, we just had a, a podcast or a working webinar on creating a social impact
[22:41] SPEAKER_03: wellness hub. And, you know, that, that topic of, of coming together was really important. So,
[22:49] SPEAKER_03: the importance of in person, I think, is what we're all lacking right now, right?
[22:53] SPEAKER_03: In time. Yeah. And how do you see, I mean, how, how is this environment affected how you engage
[23:00] SPEAKER_01: with your clients? Well, I'm, here I am talking about leaning into the discomfort and not being so
[23:06] SPEAKER_01: rigid. When COVID first hit, I wasn't keen about doing online therapy. I fully admit it. I was like,
[23:13] SPEAKER_01: oh, God, this, you know, especially with the nature of the work I do, I do a lot of semantics,
[23:17] SPEAKER_01: psychotherapy, which working with the body. And, you know, I work with the social engagement
[23:22] SPEAKER_01: system. So I thought this isn't really going to translate very well. And I've actually been
[23:28] SPEAKER_01: pleasantly surprised. I've had some incredibly fruitful sessions online. I've been able to do some
[23:34] SPEAKER_01: deeper work online that I didn't really think was possible. So that's been a bit of a shame.
[23:39] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it has, I still much prefer being in physical contact with my clients.
[23:46] SPEAKER_01: And I've heard the same thing from other therapists too that we were sort of like, oh, I don't
[23:50] SPEAKER_01: want to do this. And gone, hey, now that I've got the hang of it, I'm glad it's more comfortable.
[23:55] SPEAKER_01: There is some kind of cool things about it too. So clients can use their, you know, their pet
[24:00] SPEAKER_01: to help, you know, to help regulate themselves. And, and, you know, they can curl up in their
[24:06] SPEAKER_01: dammies if they want. And there's those kind of pieces that are neat. And maybe that, you know,
[24:11] SPEAKER_03: being a home environment or a comfortable environment allows them to be more relaxed than coming into a,
[24:18] SPEAKER_03: yeah, you're right. Having to go through the effort of, of coming in to see a therapist, even though
[24:24] SPEAKER_03: I've got to say, you have the most colorful office ever. I love it. I wish I could showcase it here.
[24:31] SPEAKER_03: Fantastic. You know, it's hard not to be comfortable with chocolate and beautiful,
[24:36] SPEAKER_03: beautiful things around you in your office. So I love that.
[24:39] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Well, I try to make it very nonclinical. My office is, yes, is, and one of the things,
[24:45] SPEAKER_01: because I do specialize in trauma is people that have had traumatic childhoods. It wasn't safe to
[24:51] SPEAKER_01: develop sort of that childhood sense of joy and like heartedness. And so I try to create that
[24:56] SPEAKER_01: in my office. It's not a serious office at all. It's not clinical. I want people to, you know,
[25:02] SPEAKER_01: take some delight in some silliness and some, you know, color and joy. It's a big part of healing
[25:09] SPEAKER_01: from childhood trauma is to, is, is play, the concept of play. Now working remotely, I would like
[25:17] SPEAKER_03: to suggest if you haven't already realized this, that suddenly the world is your oyster.
[25:21] SPEAKER_03: Is, is if you're getting to be comfortable with the online counseling. And I can imagine having
[25:28] SPEAKER_03: your office as a virtual background and, and, you know, you are absolutely delightful every day,
[25:34] SPEAKER_03: but your environment is delightful. And I, you know, I would love to connect you with more people
[25:38] SPEAKER_03: globally that could, that could take advantage of your energy is amazing. And you know, and it's
[25:43] SPEAKER_01: really funny. You say that because I've been getting so many messages lately of people that are
[25:47] SPEAKER_01: all over the world that want to work with me. But I'm actually, I can't. I'm not, you know, I'm not
[25:53] SPEAKER_01: in shirt to work globally. I'm not. It's to work globally. So it's one of those things that's like,
[25:59] SPEAKER_01: God, I'd love to. I got a message just this week from professional athlete actually. And he
[26:05] SPEAKER_01: shared some of his story. And it was like, oh, he's like the perfect person for me to work with. But
[26:10] SPEAKER_03: I can't. So that's a red tape issue. How do we overcome that, Christine? What, what's the, I don't
[26:16] SPEAKER_01: know. And I mean, if I, if I called myself like a life coach and stuff like that, then there's all
[26:21] SPEAKER_01: sorts of ways around that. But I just, you know, I have to work with the my, the scope of my practice.
[26:28] SPEAKER_01: And I certainly don't want to, I don't want to do anything that's unethical. Right. And so just,
[26:34] SPEAKER_03: let's just talk about that. So it typically, as a, as a counselor, you're licensed within a geography,
[26:39] SPEAKER_01: is that how it works? Like a trade? Yeah. So it's, you know, and it's, it's brutal in Canada,
[26:45] SPEAKER_01: because each province has sort of different. So we're actually unlicensed and busy. Anybody
[26:51] SPEAKER_01: can call themselves a counselor, which is terrifying. So you could put up a shingle and say, I'm a counselor.
[26:58] SPEAKER_01: counselor. And so what happens is, you know, the general public assumes that we're all vetted in
[27:04] SPEAKER_01: the same way, right? That we've, you know, we've either gone, however many clinical hours before
[27:09] SPEAKER_01: certification and all of that. But the reality is that's not true. So there's somebody that could do,
[27:15] SPEAKER_01: you know, nine months, addictions, counseling course and say that I, they're a counselor.
[27:21] SPEAKER_01: And then there's somebody else that could do 10 years of university that's a counselor.
[27:25] SPEAKER_01: If you don't know what those letters behind the name mean, right? Then, so it's, it's one of those
[27:31] SPEAKER_01: tricky things. So Alberta and Ontario have much better governing bodies than we do here. We've
[27:39] SPEAKER_01: been bushing for like, I think 10 or 20 years in BC and they keep saying it close, it's close.
[27:45] SPEAKER_01: But that's something actually that the general public should be more aware of. Every counselor, myself,
[27:51] SPEAKER_01: included, we give, you know, a free 15, 20 minute phone call or or check in or whatever. And those
[27:58] SPEAKER_01: are great questions to bring to people. What is your training background? How many years did you go
[28:03] SPEAKER_01: to school? Is there something you specialize in? Because it, you know, if we don't, if we make
[28:08] SPEAKER_01: the assumptions, kind of like, if you go to your GP, you know that he's, you know, a general
[28:12] SPEAKER_01: practitioner, right? And you, you, you know that he's done, you know, X number of years of training.
[28:17] SPEAKER_01: But it's not the same for the term counselor, unfortunately. When you referred to your license
[28:23] SPEAKER_01: and it's not BC based, it is BC space. So I'm a registered clinical counselor in BC. So BC,
[28:31] SPEAKER_01: BC, BC Association of Registered Clinical Counselors is what my title is. And yes, we have to do,
[28:39] SPEAKER_01: yeah, I have a master's degree and they make sure that you've done specific courses like human
[28:45] SPEAKER_01: development and psychopathology and canning remembroral of the merchant counseling. And you have
[28:54] SPEAKER_01: to do so many hours. So before I became a counselor, I've actually done 2000 hours of free counseling.
[29:00] SPEAKER_01: Wow. Which is interesting too, right? When you look at somebody like, you know, in other fields,
[29:06] SPEAKER_01: they actually get paid for those, you know, those internships. Right. Not with what I do.
[29:13] SPEAKER_03: Right. Gotcha. Let's just kind of redirect back to on a personal note. What, how do you refresh
[29:20] SPEAKER_03: and recharge and stay energized in order to be able to serve others? I like to do a lot of artwork.
[29:30] SPEAKER_01: I like to work with my hands. And you know, it's an interesting thing because currently in the
[29:35] SPEAKER_01: midst of COVID, we're noticing, they're doing some research on it. It's obviously very preliminary.
[29:41] SPEAKER_01: But because there's these zoom meetings and this kind of stuff and we're constantly thinking about,
[29:46] SPEAKER_01: did I get my mask? I've got to go to the store. Oh, did they take bags there? Do I have to bring my
[29:50] SPEAKER_01: own? We're constant. We're thinking more than we normally were, which is all of the, the
[29:58] SPEAKER_01: brain, which is really, really draining. And so what we need to do is sort of work with and,
[30:05] SPEAKER_01: we want to tap into anything that's creative. So whether it's gardening or knitting or cooking or
[30:12] SPEAKER_01: baking or painting and these kind of things, you know, nature, I know you're a nature lover,
[30:17] SPEAKER_01: those are the ways that we can recharge. We need to really simplify things down. So we actually
[30:23] SPEAKER_03: can maximize the neocortex when we need to. And so you personally, I mean, I'll give you a
[30:31] SPEAKER_03: plug that your color endorses our walls or is, is on our walls right now at the co-working space. But
[30:38] SPEAKER_03: also, and we're going to probably be doing some painting. But is there anything from a motivational
[30:45] SPEAKER_03: inspirational point of view that you could suggest to people to read or a source of, of inspiration
[30:53] SPEAKER_03: that you take on that you'd love to share with others? Well, I have a Facebook page, Black
[31:00] SPEAKER_01: Sheep Council, I post a lot of stuff there and I tend to get inspired by the things that I'm
[31:05] SPEAKER_01: seeing in my office. So if I have a bunch of people in my office that are talking about something
[31:10] SPEAKER_01: specific, then I will, you know, sometimes I'll write a blog or I'll find content that
[31:16] SPEAKER_01: that speaks to what's showing up. But you know, you don't, you don't just have to follow me,
[31:20] SPEAKER_01: follow it. I'm not on Instagram, but follow therapists on Instagram and stuff like that.
[31:26] SPEAKER_01: Those are really, really helpful sources and it's free. Why not? And then it can spur you
[31:31] SPEAKER_01: on to something else, right? You might think, oh, I didn't even know that maybe these are some of
[31:36] SPEAKER_01: issues I'm contending with. And there's a book recommendation here. Is there anything that you're
[31:41] SPEAKER_01: reading right now? I'm actually reading ethical porn for Dix. Ah, okay, what is that one all about?
[31:53] SPEAKER_01: There's always a battle with porn in, I would say pretty much all of my couples counseling.
[32:01] SPEAKER_01: And it becomes this whole thing about how dare you and human trafficking and it's
[32:06] SPEAKER_01: demeaning to women and all of this kind of stuff. You know, the reality is a lot of porn is,
[32:12] SPEAKER_01: right? And so I think then it becomes this whole thing about values and beliefs and human rights
[32:17] SPEAKER_01: and dignity. But there, you know, there needs to be another conversation about rather like again,
[32:23] SPEAKER_01: stirring away from the black and white way of thinking and looking at it through the lens of
[32:28] SPEAKER_01: is there ethical porn? Actually, there is. There is. And so can we explore that and cannot be part
[32:34] SPEAKER_01: of the conversation rather than how dare you and I'm going to bloody well do it, right? Right. So
[32:40] SPEAKER_01: I think that that needs to be a conversation. That's one that I'm fostering and a lot of my
[32:45] SPEAKER_03: couples counseling right now. I'll just throw out there that I think a whole nother podcast and
[32:50] SPEAKER_03: conversation around sexuality and sensuality and the, you know, it's a basic human need and
[32:56] SPEAKER_03: our culture has, you know, suppressed it or, or, you know, it's become objectified in so many ways.
[33:03] SPEAKER_03: And yet it's something that we all need to tap into. Yeah, it's not going to go away. I mean,
[33:09] SPEAKER_01: when we look at Asian civilizations, you know, we look at the walls of Pompeii and stuff like that.
[33:14] SPEAKER_01: I mean, they had porn on their walls. So it's not that porn is a new thing. Okay, so that is
[33:21] SPEAKER_03: another conversation for us to have later. But so from today, how can people get a hold of
[33:26] SPEAKER_01: you? Christine, the best way is, well, they can email me at Christine at blacksheepcounseling.com.
[33:34] SPEAKER_01: They can check out my website, www.blacksheepcounseling.com. And counseling is spelled the Canadian way with
[33:41] SPEAKER_01: two Ls. All my American therapists friends always spell it wrong. You can check out my Facebook page.
[33:49] SPEAKER_01: You can call or text me at 250-667-228 or you can pop into the network hub and say hi to Angie and ask
[33:58] SPEAKER_03: if I'm in. Awesome. Christine, it has been an absolute pleasure. We talked about a lot of different
[34:03] SPEAKER_03: things today. But I think super relevant and and very apt for this day and age. It has been a
[34:09] SPEAKER_03: pleasure. I always get super energized talking to you. So yeah, thanks again for joining us on the
[34:14] SPEAKER_02: podcast. Okay, thanks Angie. Bye. Thanks for taking the time today to listen to British Columbia's
[34:21] SPEAKER_02: podcast on the Canada's podcast network. We hope you enjoyed the show today. Make sure you sign
[34:26] SPEAKER_02: up for our newsletters and write a review for us on iTunes. Connect with us on Twitter, Facebook,
[34:33] SPEAKER_02: Instagram, LinkedIn or at Canada'spodcast.com. You can check out what other entrepreneurs are doing
[34:39] SPEAKER_02: across the country. I'm Angela Faye. See you next time.