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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's Podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_00: Hello, I'm Mario Tonigus,
[00:07] SPEAKER_00: a managing editor of Canada's Podcast.
[00:10] SPEAKER_00: Today on Calgary's Podcast,
[00:13] SPEAKER_00: my guest is Carolyn Berglund,
[00:15] SPEAKER_00: who is the principal of Talk Talk in Calgary.
[00:19] SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Carolyn, for joining us today.
[00:21] SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
[00:23] SPEAKER_00: Well, let me just ask you a little bit about what you do.
[00:26] SPEAKER_00: What is Talk Talk?
[00:29] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Talk Talk is a company that I started about 15, 16 years ago,
[00:36] SPEAKER_01: and actually stopped the business for a little bit,
[00:39] SPEAKER_01: so I went back into the big consulting houses for about a decade.
[00:43] SPEAKER_01: And then three years ago, actually, this month was in a position to resurrect it.
[00:49] SPEAKER_01: So what we do at Talk Talk is we play in a number of different spaces.
[00:53] SPEAKER_01: One is we work in the leadership space.
[00:56] SPEAKER_01: We work in team development.
[00:58] SPEAKER_01: We also do executive coaching,
[01:00] SPEAKER_01: and we help others be better public speakers.
[01:05] SPEAKER_00: And how did you get into this?
[01:07] SPEAKER_00: How did this all start?
[01:10] SPEAKER_01: It's a good question.
[01:12] SPEAKER_01: If I go back to my career at coming out of university,
[01:15] SPEAKER_01: I worked for a little organization by the name of Kellogg's,
[01:18] SPEAKER_01: so SnapCraftful and Falk.
[01:20] SPEAKER_01: I just spent 10 years in consumer package good sales.
[01:23] SPEAKER_01: But when I was at Kellogg's,
[01:25] SPEAKER_01: a gentleman had suggested we had launched one of my colleagues
[01:28] SPEAKER_01: that I take up a program called Dale Carnegie.
[01:31] SPEAKER_01: So you might be familiar with how to win friends and influence people.
[01:34] SPEAKER_01: So I ended up taking that program as a participant,
[01:38] SPEAKER_01: and then became what is called the graduated assistant,
[01:41] SPEAKER_01: and ended up instructing that program for a couple of years.
[01:44] SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of got a portal into facilitating and presenting in front of groups.
[01:48] SPEAKER_01: And so I've just continued alongside my career to develop that facilitation muscle,
[01:55] SPEAKER_01: if you will, and it's just something that I have adored.
[02:00] SPEAKER_00: What was it, you know, having worked in both areas for somebody and for yourself?
[02:10] SPEAKER_00: What was the biggest transition for you to go on your own and do it on your own?
[02:18] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so Mary, I spent half of my career working for somebody else in various iterations.
[02:24] SPEAKER_01: Like I mentioned Kellogg's other consumer package good organization,
[02:28] SPEAKER_01: big consulting firms, and then I had my own, my own company.
[02:33] SPEAKER_01: And I think the biggest transition and why I like this space,
[02:37] SPEAKER_01: the entrepreneurial spaces, because you afforded the luxury of being creative.
[02:42] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[02:42] SPEAKER_01: So when you're under the tutelage of a big organization,
[02:46] SPEAKER_01: they kind of dictate how you do things and why you do things.
[02:51] SPEAKER_01: And now I get to be super creative in terms of the content that I'm creating for the teams in which I work,
[02:57] SPEAKER_01: the people that I work with.
[02:59] SPEAKER_00: What was your biggest challenge of doing this?
[03:06] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, another good question.
[03:09] SPEAKER_01: I would say just having the confidence in oneself to say that I can make that transition.
[03:14] SPEAKER_01: I believe in myself enough to do this, that I could get the client work.
[03:20] SPEAKER_01: And just making that leap and taking that risk, because it is a risk, right,
[03:25] SPEAKER_01: when you make that transition from the corporate world to yourself.
[03:29] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[03:31] SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, if you had some people like that you were mentoring safer and since,
[03:37] SPEAKER_00: and they were asking you questions about being an entrepreneur,
[03:42] SPEAKER_00: what would you tell them?
[03:43] SPEAKER_00: What would advice would you give them?
[03:46] SPEAKER_01: I would say if someone's considering going into having their own organization,
[03:51] SPEAKER_01: whether it's professional services like what I offer,
[03:54] SPEAKER_01: or they have a widget or whatever it is,
[03:58] SPEAKER_01: you know, it's funny, the older I get, the more I think, just go for it.
[04:02] SPEAKER_01: I know that sounds kind of like a little bit,
[04:05] SPEAKER_01: but I think life is really short.
[04:08] SPEAKER_01: And if you have a dream, I think part of our purpose in life is to pursue that dream,
[04:13] SPEAKER_01: whatever that is.
[04:15] SPEAKER_01: And so obviously there's all kinds of other implications, financial implications.
[04:20] SPEAKER_01: Can you do it? All of that.
[04:22] SPEAKER_01: But I would say do it or plan for it.
[04:25] SPEAKER_01: So even if you're in an organization, car vote time each and every day to look at your dream
[04:32] SPEAKER_01: and see if you can make that a reality.
[04:34] SPEAKER_01: So make a plan.
[04:35] SPEAKER_01: Leave in yourself, take the risk.
[04:38] SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
[04:39] SPEAKER_00: We all know those stories, a lot of the famous stories out there where people just,
[04:46] SPEAKER_00: you know, kept going at it, right, kept going at it.
[04:49] SPEAKER_00: And now phenomenal success, right?
[04:53] SPEAKER_00: I guess it's, it's, especially when you're starting something new, it's hard, right?
[04:58] SPEAKER_00: It's hard, but easy to just stop, right?
[05:01] SPEAKER_00: And say, well, do this anymore.
[05:04] SPEAKER_01: And you might, I won't say fail, but I did, I did this twice.
[05:07] SPEAKER_01: So the first time I did it, quite candidly, and to offer, I was going through a divorce
[05:13] SPEAKER_01: and had a little kid.
[05:15] SPEAKER_01: And in the consultant profession, you have really good months.
[05:18] SPEAKER_01: You have some not so good months.
[05:19] SPEAKER_01: And so I needed a kind of a steadier kind of income stream.
[05:24] SPEAKER_01: So went and parked that for a little bit such that I could, could resurrect it some three years ago.
[05:32] SPEAKER_01: So even if it doesn't work the first time, if it still continues to be your dream,
[05:37] SPEAKER_01: yeah, continue to pursue it.
[05:39] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[05:40] SPEAKER_00: What do you like about, I guess, doing business here in Calgary and in the province?
[05:47] SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, I've been here 23 years.
[05:50] SPEAKER_01: I was born in Winnipeg, which as you talk to people in the community,
[05:55] SPEAKER_01: a lot of people are from Winnipeg.
[05:57] SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
[05:58] SPEAKER_01: A lot.
[05:59] SPEAKER_01: But this is home now having been here 23 years.
[06:03] SPEAKER_01: There's a variety of industries.
[06:05] SPEAKER_01: I think the network is really strong.
[06:08] SPEAKER_01: I work in Calgary for sure, but I also work both side of Calgary.
[06:12] SPEAKER_01: In fact, a lot of my work.
[06:13] SPEAKER_01: I want to aircraft quite a bit into Toronto, Montreal.
[06:17] SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think the clients that I have in in Calgary have been terrific in terms of just learning,
[06:24] SPEAKER_01: for example, oil and gas or, you know, that vertical.
[06:28] SPEAKER_01: So it's a great community of, I think entrepreneurs and industries for sure.
[06:34] SPEAKER_00: Can you think, you know, you're in the area of coaching, right?
[06:37] SPEAKER_00: And, you know, this isn't something 20 years ago you would have thought of or that is prevalent out out there in the business world.
[06:49] SPEAKER_00: What's over the years like that now, you know, so many executives seem to have poaches, right?
[06:57] SPEAKER_00: What's changed over that time?
[07:00] SPEAKER_01: Well, coaching is necessarily new, like even with the deal Carnegie program that is telling you,
[07:05] SPEAKER_01: even though it's a workshop, I think there's there's coaching opportunities there.
[07:09] SPEAKER_01: I think even coaches need coaches, I have a coach.
[07:12] SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a safe place to learn to talk about issues that might be happening in your universe.
[07:19] SPEAKER_01: And, and having someone to kind of just talk about how do I get out of that?
[07:24] SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
[07:25] SPEAKER_01: It's, it's an impartial place to have a conversation.
[07:29] SPEAKER_01: And so, for those that don't have coaches, I would encourage everybody to get a coach just because it's, and it's a great place to set objectives and, and be held accountable as well to those objectives in which you're, you're setting.
[07:45] SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, in terms of the coaching, what do you find, I guess, is there anything that is in particular that is a common thread throughout a lot of stuff that is in particular.
[07:59] SPEAKER_00: That people aren't doing and need to do.
[08:03] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of the people that I coach come to me because there's some kind of conflict going on.
[08:11] SPEAKER_01: So, I don't know, Mario, how conflict became a dirty word.
[08:15] SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's a bad thing.
[08:17] SPEAKER_01: I actually think healthy and passionate debate is, is part of working with other people.
[08:23] SPEAKER_01: So, I, thematically, I think what we work on, again, thematically, is building trusting relationships with those that we work with such that we can go into that passionate conflict.
[08:35] SPEAKER_01: We can have commitment and accountability and results and laying off of what they call Lindsey only's model.
[08:41] SPEAKER_01: The topic of psychological safety is really, really hot right now. It's not a new term, but it seems to have got a resurrection, if you will, which is, you know, just creating an environment of rewarded vulnerability.
[08:55] SPEAKER_01: And I'm borrowing that from Timothy Clark.
[08:59] SPEAKER_01: So, creating an environment where you can kind of show up and be who you are.
[09:03] SPEAKER_01: Right? So often, a lot of us think that we've got to put on some kind of weird mask when we go to the office.
[09:10] SPEAKER_01: And what I work with people is saying, no, let's see if we can get you to show up to be authentically who you are.
[09:17] SPEAKER_01: So, if you think of, you know, the iceberg example, and there's a water line above the water line, is that mask that we're presenting to one another.
[09:25] SPEAKER_01: And if we can lower that water line and show each other vulnerability, who we are, I think we become better human beings. So, we all have a story. I like to say, you know, some of us have kids that are special needs.
[09:39] SPEAKER_01: Some of us have parents that are on palliative care, some of us are dealing with illness.
[09:44] SPEAKER_01: And if we can look at each other as human beings, having a human experience, then, and the humanness of it all, then we can hopefully treat each other with kindness.
[09:56] SPEAKER_01: And at the core of what I do, Mario, that's what I do is teach others how to be kind to one another such that we can work with each other in a safe and trusting environment.
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: Now, the name of your company, tell me the story there like and how that came about.
[10:12] SPEAKER_01: Well, this is going to age me.
[10:16] SPEAKER_01: There was a band in 1981, talk, talk.
[10:22] SPEAKER_01: And it's a play on that.
[10:25] SPEAKER_01: So, there's the song, it's my life. They did a bunch of different really cool songs, but I've always just liked the pattern of repetition of words.
[10:35] SPEAKER_01: So, that's where it came from.
[10:37] SPEAKER_00: And speaking of words on, and looking at your the background screen, where is that from? And so that's an interesting story.
[10:45] SPEAKER_01: So it's not wallpaper. It's a mural.
[10:47] SPEAKER_01: So there's a.
[10:49] SPEAKER_01: These things that you have to stick on the wall, which there might have been some profanity as we're trying to put it up and try to align the words.
[10:57] SPEAKER_01: This is the number one talk I think that ever existed, which is from my favorite novel called to kill a mockingbird, where Atticus Finch defends Tom Robinson.
[11:08] SPEAKER_01: And it's so profound and meaningful to me that I wanted to showcase it in a more visible way.
[11:16] SPEAKER_01: And it's a great conversation stutter because people generally ask.
[11:23] SPEAKER_00: What, what was your attraction to that part of what what what did you like about that book?
[11:30] SPEAKER_01: Well, so I wrote a book called 365 must know talks of all times.
[11:36] SPEAKER_01: So some over a decade, though, and just to give you some background, I decided to blog every day for a year. So 365 entries.
[11:45] SPEAKER_01: And I would look at a talk whether these Steve Jobs to Martin Luther King Jr. try to answer the question.
[11:54] SPEAKER_01: Like what makes a good talk versus a superb one.
[11:58] SPEAKER_01: So I'd offer an analysis and a tip.
[12:01] SPEAKER_01: And as I was undergoing that exercise, I got to this talk and I thought this is a talk that embodies all of the things that I was exploring.
[12:13] SPEAKER_01: So I kind of put myself in my own little presentation skills university by doing that activity through it into a book, but this talk had purpose.
[12:22] SPEAKER_01: It had story and emotion and excited curiosity.
[12:25] SPEAKER_01: And I just think it's powerful words mean something.
[12:29] SPEAKER_01: And you can impact other people by the words in which you say.
[12:34] SPEAKER_01: And so whether you read the book or watch the Gregory Peck version of the movie.
[12:41] SPEAKER_01: If you haven't seen it, I encourage you know, anybody that's listening to this to go ahead and listen to that particular speech.
[12:49] SPEAKER_00: Just as an aside, and a personal note.
[12:52] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[12:53] SPEAKER_00: My best friend, I grew up in Ottawa.
[12:56] SPEAKER_00: I'm my best friend from childhood all the way through high school, any minute to university became an English teacher and.
[13:03] SPEAKER_00: Favorite book to kill a mockingbird and that he taught all the time every year.
[13:09] SPEAKER_00: And he always tried to get in touch with the author Harper Lee, I think, her name, right?
[13:16] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[13:17] SPEAKER_00: And she's a recluse kind of like a JD Salon, your type.
[13:22] SPEAKER_00: So a recluse, but one day low and behold years ago, he received a letter from her and he couldn't believe it.
[13:30] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
[13:31] SPEAKER_00: Wow.
[13:33] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he just like he was just worried.
[13:35] SPEAKER_00: He received the letter from her.
[13:36] SPEAKER_00: I think he tried to.
[13:37] SPEAKER_00: What did it say?
[13:38] SPEAKER_00: I can't remember like that, that, that, you know, what, you know, what it was about.
[13:45] SPEAKER_00: But he was just reaching out to say hi and how much you enjoy the book.
[13:50] SPEAKER_00: And I think it was just one of those things.
[13:52] SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for your interest.
[13:55] SPEAKER_00: That, you know, all that type of stuff.
[13:56] SPEAKER_01: But I was telling you how committed I am to that book.
[13:59] SPEAKER_01: My son's name is out of this.
[14:01] SPEAKER_01: Oh, my.
[14:02] SPEAKER_01: So I'm committed.
[14:04] SPEAKER_01: I actually thought was having a girl and the name picked was going to be scout, which is another character in the book.
[14:10] SPEAKER_01: So there you go.
[14:10] SPEAKER_01: I was committed.
[14:12] SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting, interesting.
[14:13] SPEAKER_00: So the how difficult, but you know, I'm a writer and so I write every day, but, you know, writing is not an easy thing for a lot of people.
[14:24] SPEAKER_00: And I'm just thinking like very self, like the 365 day.
[14:31] SPEAKER_00: How difficult was that?
[14:33] SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't claim to be any kind of like tool store here.
[14:36] SPEAKER_01: I want to call myself a brilliant writer, but I'm a conversational writer.
[14:41] SPEAKER_01: And I think the practice of writing every day, and I would love to hear your opinion.
[14:46] SPEAKER_01: Like the more you write, I think the better you get.
[14:49] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[14:49] SPEAKER_01: And that was my experience is that.
[14:53] SPEAKER_01: And then I fell in love with it.
[14:54] SPEAKER_01: I had written that at that point, a couple of short stories, a couple of, you know, I had written a novel.
[15:00] SPEAKER_01: But this was a way for me to learn.
[15:03] SPEAKER_01: And I'm a big fan of a term called that I learned a couple years ago, which is auto died that, which is an insatiable at appetite to learn.
[15:12] SPEAKER_01: Like just for the sake of it, not because I want to get a PhD or I need more letters behind me.
[15:18] SPEAKER_01: Just because you're curious.
[15:21] SPEAKER_01: And so that project of writing 365 days was just an exercise of learning.
[15:27] SPEAKER_01: Like what is it that makes a great presentation?
[15:30] SPEAKER_00: So when when when you're dealing with these individuals when you're coaching.
[15:39] SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how to phrase it.
[15:43] SPEAKER_00: But it's difficult to deal with like the top end of a company as opposed to the ones down below who are kind of climbing the ladder type thing, right?
[15:56] SPEAKER_00: But because the top end topic, exactly that maybe someone think, oh, you know, there's a reason I'm here because I know it all right.
[16:04] SPEAKER_00: Type thing.
[16:05] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, so I work with all levels of an organization from CEOs to managers, supervisors to union, non union.
[16:13] SPEAKER_01: So the CEOs that come to me for let's say public speaking expertise, they've been awarded that rule because they've been quite technically good at running the company.
[16:27] SPEAKER_01: Then they get there and go, oh, wait, I don't know actually how to run a town hall.
[16:32] SPEAKER_01: I have learned that skill, right?
[16:35] SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting.
[16:37] SPEAKER_01: I'm working with the CEO right now and they were working on public speaking and he sent me his PowerPoint back.
[16:47] SPEAKER_01: And he was quite proud of it. And I said, well, I don't care.
[16:52] SPEAKER_01: Like the content needs to be there. But what we're going to focus our energies on is how are you going to deliver this? That's more.
[16:59] SPEAKER_01: That's the focus of our efforts is what's going to be your body language.
[17:04] SPEAKER_01: How are we going to tell a story? How are we going to incite some emotion and curiosity?
[17:09] SPEAKER_01: So to go back to your question of each, I think each level in a leadership organization has different challenges.
[17:17] SPEAKER_01: So it's that person going from individual contributor, I'm an employee.
[17:22] SPEAKER_01: Now I'm going to make that switch into becoming a leader.
[17:24] SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a whole slew of things that happen. What exercise do I need to pick up? What do I need to let go off and tell people don't let go?
[17:31] SPEAKER_01: And they just keep on being that working manager with that to do this.
[17:36] SPEAKER_01: So each one of those turns up through to the CEO suite.
[17:41] SPEAKER_01: There's there's various challenges that we work with.
[17:44] SPEAKER_01: But there it's difficult to say that there's a theme at any level because everybody's so different.
[17:50] SPEAKER_01: Everybody's got different personalities and desires and you know, yeah.
[17:57] SPEAKER_00: Who are who are some of the top speakers that you enjoy listening to?
[18:04] SPEAKER_01: Well, I must then I kind of start each of my days even now watching a TED talk.
[18:10] SPEAKER_01: I love TED.
[18:11] SPEAKER_01: And there are so many that I think are famous so like the Ken Robinson's out there that he talks about creativity in schools, which I think is a TED talk that's been down a little bit the most.
[18:24] SPEAKER_01: I think that's a brilliant one.
[18:26] SPEAKER_01: But there are other ones that I think are quite interesting and are less well known.
[18:30] SPEAKER_01: So there's a poet by the name of John Reeves that I like. He talks about the pattern of four o'clock in the morning.
[18:36] SPEAKER_01: He has a beautiful cadence in which and how he talks.
[18:41] SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a fellow by the name of Steven Dunne who talks about making small changes in your life.
[18:50] SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the year or five years, then all of a sudden you've really created massive change.
[18:56] SPEAKER_01: An example of his talk.
[18:58] SPEAKER_01: He would walk to work every day and listen to music.
[19:03] SPEAKER_01: And one day he said, well, I really wanted to learn a new language.
[19:06] SPEAKER_01: What if I replaced that activity with learning a new language?
[19:10] SPEAKER_01: So he started listening on those blocks to how to learn German.
[19:15] SPEAKER_01: So at the end of the year of doing that, he decided to go to Germany.
[19:19] SPEAKER_01: He told nobody that he was doing this, by the way.
[19:22] SPEAKER_01: And you know, enrolled in some immersive course of speaking German.
[19:26] SPEAKER_01: So he invites his family to Germany and he's now speaking eloquently German in his family.
[19:32] SPEAKER_01: He's like, what just happened here?
[19:34] SPEAKER_01: So just replacing one activity.
[19:37] SPEAKER_01: And he's got a myriad of other examples and that.
[19:41] SPEAKER_01: So each one of these talks that I think are great have impacted me in some way.
[19:46] SPEAKER_01: Like as a result of that Steven one, I end up creating my own list of things that maybe I need to do differently.
[19:52] SPEAKER_01: And if you've done your job well, then it insights in the other person that, well, maybe I should do that too.
[19:58] SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
[20:01] SPEAKER_00: So what do you do?
[20:02] SPEAKER_00: Obviously as a, as a entrepreneur and owner of your own business type thing.
[20:09] SPEAKER_00: You know, we're always busy.
[20:11] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[20:11] SPEAKER_00: And so, and you know, many times it's like 24 or 7.
[20:16] SPEAKER_00: And where do you find the balance and how do you create the balance in your life?
[20:23] SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't think balance exists.
[20:25] SPEAKER_01: Mario, I you talked to entrepreneurs all the time and I don't know if that's a theme for that.
[20:30] SPEAKER_01: I'm not just for you, but I don't think I think there are times when you can arrive in an imbalance.
[20:36] SPEAKER_01: You know, I do try to take some time off.
[20:38] SPEAKER_01: I do recognize the power of really unplugging.
[20:43] SPEAKER_01: So that's important to get kind of a clean slate, but I've got a supportive partner, which I think is important.
[20:50] SPEAKER_01: That helps kind of run run the household ship, if you will.
[20:54] SPEAKER_01: And I think I think of anything.
[20:57] SPEAKER_01: It's about being present.
[20:59] SPEAKER_01: So my mom always said to me, when you're in the room, be in the room, which means whatever you're doing at this time, be there.
[21:07] SPEAKER_01: And don't try to be think of everything to everybody.
[21:10] SPEAKER_01: So it's about being being where you are and not being anxious about what's to come.
[21:17] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, also being there.
[21:21] SPEAKER_00: We see in so many, in so many relationships and interactivity that we have, we're seeing people being distracted.
[21:33] SPEAKER_00: You know, you go to a restaurant and people are on their phones, right?
[21:38] SPEAKER_00: Instead of eating and talking to each other or, you know, just different things like that that distract us.
[21:48] SPEAKER_00: Is it difficult because of all that today to be present?
[21:54] SPEAKER_01: Totally. Don't you think?
[21:56] SPEAKER_00: I think so.
[21:57] SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, in my career, I, you know, I didn't have a smartphone.
[22:02] SPEAKER_01: I didn't even have a cell phone until I was 30, right?
[22:05] SPEAKER_01: And who resisted that, I don't want to cell phone.
[22:08] SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be, you know, everybody being able to call me at any given point.
[22:12] SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a real discipline around putting that thing away such that you can give your head a break.
[22:20] SPEAKER_01: So I don't look at the phone first thing in the morning.
[22:23] SPEAKER_01: I make that a practice that we're not, you know, someone really needs to get a hold of me.
[22:27] SPEAKER_01: They can find me, but for that first hour, we're not looking at that device.
[22:31] SPEAKER_01: And then I am very good at putting it away and eating as well.
[22:34] SPEAKER_01: So I think carving out, you know, time to think is really crucial as an entrepreneur.
[22:42] SPEAKER_01: Then I don't hear a lot of people, a lot of people talking about like,
[22:45] SPEAKER_01: I'll often block my calendar to read or to watch a tent talk or to sit down with pen and paper and just doodle.
[22:56] SPEAKER_01: Right? Like it's creating that space to think is where you get ideas.
[23:02] SPEAKER_01: And where creativity is nurtured and creativity for me is critical.
[23:06] SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the reasons that we just talked about why I left the corporate world.
[23:10] SPEAKER_01: It couldn't be creative there.
[23:12] SPEAKER_01: So baking in that time, I think would be my only advice I guess is to big time to think.
[23:21] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[23:22] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[23:23] SPEAKER_01: What have you found with entrepreneurs and.
[23:25] SPEAKER_00: Same thing.
[23:26] SPEAKER_00: You know, same thing.
[23:27] SPEAKER_00: They're always.
[23:29] SPEAKER_00: You know, when you asked the question about the balance, I've heard that a lot, you know, for entrepreneurs.
[23:36] SPEAKER_00: But, but, you know, the thing too, I think is important is that we need to take the time away from things.
[23:45] SPEAKER_00: You know, not only just to relax, but I find the same thing for myself.
[23:50] SPEAKER_00: Like I try to get out every day to go for a walk, right?
[23:54] SPEAKER_00: And it's when I'm walking is that all these things pop into my head.
[24:00] SPEAKER_00: When I'm away from this and this, you know, the screen, etc.
[24:08] SPEAKER_00: And just out of the blue, boom, things pop into my head.
[24:12] SPEAKER_00: I just came back for my holiday and did a lot of walking there.
[24:17] SPEAKER_00: And, and the other side of rural Saskatchewan.
[24:21] SPEAKER_00: And times of stuff, times of stuff, just popping in my head.
[24:25] SPEAKER_00: Right?
[24:26] SPEAKER_00: And I think that's, you know, I think you have to empty your your mind, I guess, to have things come in.
[24:37] SPEAKER_00: Because your mind's open.
[24:38] Speaker UNKNOWN:
[24:38] SPEAKER_00: But stuff, nothing's going to come in, right?
[24:40] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to go to friends cabin and it's off grid.
[24:47] SPEAKER_01: Off the grid.
[24:48] SPEAKER_01: Like no sell service, land line, right?
[24:52] SPEAKER_01: And if that phone rings or like what's happening?
[24:55] SPEAKER_01: So that was an interesting exercise in understanding our addiction to all things connected to Wi-Fi.
[25:03] SPEAKER_01: Where I couldn't even check if I wanted to.
[25:06] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[25:07] SPEAKER_01: So there's a period of, oh, this feels deeply uncomfortable.
[25:11] SPEAKER_01: And then you find yourself in this pattern of, well, I don't know if I want to go back yet.
[25:15] SPEAKER_01: I kind of like this space of nothingness.
[25:18] SPEAKER_00: Oh, I hear you.
[25:19] SPEAKER_00: I hear you.
[25:20] SPEAKER_00: I try to do that every so often just to recharge and.
[25:25] SPEAKER_00: And you find you find if you don't rest.
[25:29] SPEAKER_00: And don't unplug in many ways, whether it's from technology or work.
[25:36] SPEAKER_00: I think you know, that's a fine recipe for burning out.
[25:42] SPEAKER_00: And being unproductive as you could be.
[25:46] SPEAKER_01: But it'll be you.
[25:47] SPEAKER_01: I burn some of the couple times in my career.
[25:49] SPEAKER_01: It's not a lot of fun.
[25:50] SPEAKER_01: And it takes a lot of stuff back from that.
[25:53] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[25:53] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
[25:54] SPEAKER_01: So if you can be preventative, I think that's the real real message.
[25:58] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[25:59] SPEAKER_00: All right.
[25:59] SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks very much, Carolyn, for joining us today.
[26:03] SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
[26:04] SPEAKER_01: It's been a pleasure.
[26:05] SPEAKER_00: All right.
[26:06] SPEAKER_00: That was Carolyn Bergland, who is principal of talk talk.
[26:10] SPEAKER_00: I'm Mario Tonigusi, managing editor of Canada's podcast today with Kelli's podcast.
[26:15] SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us.
