Amanda Munday is Founder & CEO of The Workaround and Author of Her Memoir Day Nine: A Postpartum Depression Memoir

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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's podcast, the number one podcast for entrepreneurs by
[00:06] SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurs. Welcome to Canada's podcast. I'm your host, Celine
[00:11] SPEAKER_01: Williams and today I'm here with Amanda Monday, who is an author she wrote a
[00:16] SPEAKER_01: book called Day 9, a mother and the founder and CEO of the work around a
[00:21] SPEAKER_01: co-working space with on-site childcare in Toronto. So Amanda, thank you for
[00:27] SPEAKER_01: joining me today. It's a pleasure, it's always. So Amanda and I actually met a
[00:32] SPEAKER_01: few years ago at a totally different co-working space, not the work around. It
[00:36] SPEAKER_01: was not in existence yet. So it's really exciting that you have created this
[00:41] SPEAKER_01: phenomenal split. It's beautiful. I've been this phenomenal space. The with
[00:45] SPEAKER_01: parents and mine and with childcare on site. I'd love to hear your journey to
[00:50] SPEAKER_01: getting to start and to starting the work around. Yeah, well it's funny because
[00:56] SPEAKER_00: at other co-working space that we worked out was part of what it's part of
[01:02] SPEAKER_00: look on my brain turning around it because I worked in tech and tech startups
[01:07] SPEAKER_00: often work out of co-working spaces for lots of reasons. And you know I was one
[01:13] SPEAKER_00: of very few parents at the tech company that I worked at and quite frankly very
[01:18] SPEAKER_00: few parents in the building and it was a four or five floor co-working space
[01:23] SPEAKER_00: right downtown in Toronto, King and Bathurst. And I mean honestly if if there
[01:29] SPEAKER_00: were parents who worked there, it's like a wooden of known because there
[01:32] SPEAKER_00: were no obvious signs of the struggle that parents both through or even just
[01:37] SPEAKER_00: the presence of kids. If somebody had to do the drop off childcare, race to work,
[01:43] SPEAKER_00: try not to be word dance, I was often thinking about like this is so much harder
[01:48] SPEAKER_00: than it has to be and to make it easier on me to work and be a parent of two
[01:56] SPEAKER_00: small kids under three. My options were in Stellar, very limited, it's a
[02:01] SPEAKER_00: lean on family or pay you know for two kids it's $50,000 per year in child care
[02:07] SPEAKER_00: costs and that's on average that's not like elite gold stars. This is like any
[02:14] SPEAKER_00: average daycare is going to be 50 grand. So it really started to be like all
[02:19] SPEAKER_00: right. I don't see a way to not spend this money. So what if I invest it in a
[02:26] SPEAKER_00: different way? What if I invest it myself? What if I invest in a new way? That
[02:32] SPEAKER_00: builds just an option or as a way I still think about the workaround as a proof
[02:38] SPEAKER_00: of concept. Like what if we prove that kids can be at work without being like
[02:43] SPEAKER_00: at work right? So there are not children running around the workaround. People
[02:47] SPEAKER_00: often make this hilarious assumption that because the workaround has on-site daycare
[02:52] SPEAKER_00: that means that when you grab a seat that there's going to be like a three-year-old
[02:56] SPEAKER_00: running by with like an airplane or something like not true. Amazing. There's a daycare on site.
[03:03] SPEAKER_00: But yeah I really I really very selfishly wanted my own life to get easier and
[03:12] SPEAKER_00: as somebody kind of had I guess an innovation lens just being surrounded by so
[03:18] SPEAKER_00: many different entrepreneurs and founders working in co-working spaces. It
[03:23] SPEAKER_00: started to seem so obvious to me that we could at least at least try it. And
[03:28] SPEAKER_00: it just see and it turns out that there are hundreds of parents in my local
[03:35] SPEAKER_00: neighborhood who had the same needs and desires that I did and that's kind of
[03:41] SPEAKER_01: how the workaround was born. I think that's amazing and you're right. That
[03:46] SPEAKER_01: co-working space I had no idea who was a parent and who was like how would you
[03:50] SPEAKER_00: have known? Like probably no 80% of the people there were
[03:53] SPEAKER_00: parents but I don't know because it was so focused on every other you know cool
[03:58] SPEAKER_00: downtown culture which is like there was ample alcohol. There were snacks that
[04:03] SPEAKER_00: were mostly not healthy. The social hours took place between like six and eight
[04:09] SPEAKER_00: which is bedtime in my life. I've got to get out of there. You know meetings
[04:13] SPEAKER_00: get kicked off late. You almost never saw anyone there before 10 a.m. like it
[04:18] SPEAKER_00: was completely different from the life that we have to live as parents with
[04:23] SPEAKER_00: small kids where you know your schedule is just so framed around the school
[04:29] SPEAKER_00: schedule. So yeah I just thought I think I even brought my kids if I remember
[04:35] SPEAKER_00: I think it was a holiday party but honestly could have been Halloween. It was
[04:39] SPEAKER_00: a themed celebratory event that in my mind I deemed as being kid friendly. There
[04:47] SPEAKER_00: was a lunchtime type thing in the big auditorium and I brought my daughter who
[04:52] SPEAKER_00: would then would have been like just over one and was certainly the only kid and
[04:57] SPEAKER_00: and sort of I remember I spoke being looked at like we were aliens in this
[05:01] SPEAKER_00: space right and yeah I often thought like we should really be normalizing kids
[05:07] SPEAKER_00: that work because it would make it a lot easier for me to do my job. A hundred
[05:11] SPEAKER_01: percent and I would hedge a bet that it would make it a lot easier for
[05:17] SPEAKER_01: a lot of mothers specifically more so than fathers to do their job right
[05:22] SPEAKER_01: because I think that fathers are granted a different kind of well you know
[05:27] SPEAKER_01: you work that sort of old idea of you're the primary breadwinner you go
[05:32] SPEAKER_01: off and work and you make the money and the mother will sort out what the
[05:36] SPEAKER_00: childcare looks like. Yeah and you know it's not speculation right and this is
[05:42] SPEAKER_00: this is a widespread now well documented fact in Canada right we've learned
[05:47] SPEAKER_00: we've learned in March that March of this year 2020 during the lockdown a
[05:52] SPEAKER_00: million Canadian women lost their jobs because of all the small business
[05:57] SPEAKER_00: closures well why is that that's because women predominantly work in
[06:01] SPEAKER_00: industries that were hit the worst service retail and food why do women work in
[06:06] SPEAKER_00: those sectors because they're more flexible because they're lower paying
[06:11] SPEAKER_00: often flexible part-time options why are women in those roles because they're
[06:17] SPEAKER_00: taking a run of the caregiving duties why did they not regain those jobs
[06:22] SPEAKER_00: because we don't have childcare right now because we're in a lockdown because
[06:25] SPEAKER_00: schools have been closed because childcare is really people are very concerned
[06:30] SPEAKER_00: about COVID rates and infection rates and so who's returning to those job right
[06:36] SPEAKER_00: and you know one of the things around remote work that is causing you so much
[06:40] SPEAKER_00: kind of bubbling physical both rage and anxiety is when people talk about this
[06:46] SPEAKER_00: like seas she's I can't say it she's sessions she recession just call it a
[06:52] SPEAKER_00: recession like we don't need to beautify what's happening because it's
[06:55] SPEAKER_00: predominantly hitting women it's not a she-session we have an economic
[06:59] SPEAKER_00: recession where we have lost millions of jobs predominantly by marginalized
[07:04] SPEAKER_00: genders and we have a real problem here and if you if you sort of reconcile
[07:12] SPEAKER_00: that against the tech industry and and the places that serve co-working we see a
[07:18] SPEAKER_00: lot of this like remote work is the new thing and everybody's sticking to
[07:23] SPEAKER_00: remote we're not going back to offices and actually my business was an
[07:27] SPEAKER_00: impacted at all by COVID like that narrative is being led by the status quo
[07:34] SPEAKER_00: that is not acknowledging who has been very severely harmed by this pandemic
[07:41] SPEAKER_00: and what our assumptions are who's going to take over in the workforce and what
[07:48] SPEAKER_00: the future looks like for for new generations I just you know get super
[07:54] SPEAKER_00: angry and rage you about it because it's not a cute little oh isn't that
[07:59] SPEAKER_01: interesting it's a very serious crisis absolutely and the fact that the there
[08:04] SPEAKER_01: is an option at the workaround where if a woman is in a position and I'm picking
[08:08] SPEAKER_01: out women specifically for obvious reasons but by no means is it only women but
[08:12] SPEAKER_01: if they're in a position to go back to work to restart their business to
[08:16] SPEAKER_01: something there is also an option built in that childcare can be part of that
[08:22] SPEAKER_01: and that is you know the people that I talk to whether it's clients or friends
[08:27] SPEAKER_01: the biggest complaint consistently is it's impossible to work with kids at
[08:32] SPEAKER_01: home so even if they're running their own business even if they've been given
[08:35] SPEAKER_01: the option of remote work how do you do that when you have two kids at home that
[08:40] SPEAKER_01: you're responsible for homeschooling and day caring and feeding and whatever
[08:45] SPEAKER_00: it's impossible it's impossible in the expectation is that we can somehow make
[08:49] SPEAKER_00: it work like online learning in that way especially when you're talking about
[08:52] SPEAKER_00: kids under six seven it's impossible I like to put a child in front of a laptop
[08:57] SPEAKER_00: where they're supposed to navigate like my daughter was expected last year she
[09:01] SPEAKER_00: was in senior kindergarten she's five she was expected to get on the laptop
[09:07] SPEAKER_00: with a browser which already is language she doesn't understand navigate
[09:11] SPEAKER_00: multiple tabs with like a YouTube tab and a Google Classroom and then a PDF
[09:16] SPEAKER_00: download like I know it sounds simplistic but that's beyond what her
[09:21] SPEAKER_00: learning environment is right in this multi-tab like down the the PDF of the
[09:26] SPEAKER_00: activity sheet and then watch the instructions on YouTube and then enter it
[09:30] SPEAKER_00: into Google Classroom with your answer like she is not sitting independently
[09:33] SPEAKER_00: in doing that work she's saying where's the what's a tab and what's what's a
[09:39] SPEAKER_00: PDF and where is it and I don't know I clicked on it and it disappeared and
[09:43] SPEAKER_00: like so yes even if there are other people in my household and right now
[09:47] SPEAKER_00: there's not but even if I had a part of there like she's defaulting to me for
[09:53] SPEAKER_00: help with those things and it's it's truly impossible you know from my
[10:00] SPEAKER_00: business perspective both it's very bitter sweet because I have been joking
[10:06] SPEAKER_00: that in the last eight months prior to COVID I was explaining to people what the
[10:12] SPEAKER_00: workaround is and why people would need it and here's this thing I'm doing this
[10:15] SPEAKER_00: innovative thing where you can focus on working your kids are taking care of
[10:20] SPEAKER_00: and the gift of the pandemic for me personally is that I'll never again have
[10:24] SPEAKER_00: to explain why the workaround is needed and I'll never again have to explain why
[10:31] SPEAKER_00: working from home with kids doesn't work but I am still explaining who we are
[10:39] SPEAKER_00: expecting to use the workaround even it is still predominantly mothers who are
[10:43] SPEAKER_00: reaching out the work here we do have dads here and it's amazing and we have
[10:47] SPEAKER_00: parents who are sharing a desk and we have marginalized genders and we have lots of
[10:53] SPEAKER_00: different types of families who work here and I see a lot of women come through
[10:59] SPEAKER_00: these doors saying they are you know they're the ones who have tried to take
[11:04] SPEAKER_00: on something more flexible so that their partner in their hetero marriage and
[11:10] SPEAKER_00: focus on his full-time higher paying job which still has systemic barriers around
[11:16] SPEAKER_01: all of this yeah and it is I totally I can 100% appreciate the bitter
[11:22] SPEAKER_01: sweetness of what you're talking about where people who are not women with
[11:27] SPEAKER_01: children now understand it because they will have seen it more and I think
[11:32] SPEAKER_01: before pre-pandemic pre-COVID days it almost became this invisible it was
[11:39] SPEAKER_01: like an I mean and I want to say this by no means do I think that mothers and
[11:44] SPEAKER_01: women with children and marginalized people genders you know with children are
[11:50] SPEAKER_01: invisible but it almost becomes an or it almost was part of me an invisible
[11:57] SPEAKER_01: problem that if you were not part of that group it just you didn't have to
[12:01] SPEAKER_01: acknowledge it or deal with it or think about it and with everyone being sent
[12:06] SPEAKER_01: home to work or losing jobs that's a real discussion now that's a real
[12:13] SPEAKER_01: acknowledgement it's much more widely visible if that makes sense I don't I
[12:20] SPEAKER_00: think we really you know we have to really consider child care is an
[12:26] SPEAKER_00: economic imperative and to me I mean I hear I hear the message of you know you
[12:33] SPEAKER_00: know I'm not a parent I don't understand but we need we need non-parents like
[12:37] SPEAKER_00: as far as I'm concerned this is a coalition it's coalition building time right
[12:40] SPEAKER_00: it's time to build up the crew that we need to stream at everybody we can it's
[12:47] SPEAKER_00: not just government it's also businesses and employers of like we need to
[12:51] SPEAKER_00: better support child care if we have any hope of digging out of the harm of
[12:56] SPEAKER_00: the pandemic like this is you're right it has brought it to a head where this
[13:01] SPEAKER_00: is not a nice to have this is an absolute critical essential to get people to
[13:06] SPEAKER_00: work full-stop you don't have people at work businesses close businesses close
[13:10] SPEAKER_00: what happens like this is a very clear line to me and we need as many people as
[13:17] SPEAKER_01: possible to hear that message I cannot agree more one of the things that I
[13:21] SPEAKER_01: have seen happening a lot of the conversations that I've had with clients or
[13:25] SPEAKER_01: leaders in businesses that I work with and work and some are quite large
[13:28] SPEAKER_01: organizations is the realization that we need to be asking people the people that
[13:36] SPEAKER_01: report to us the people on our teams what their situation is and how they can
[13:41] SPEAKER_01: be helped in the larger organizations that I've been working with are very
[13:44] SPEAKER_01: intentional about that because it wasn't something they'd even been thinking of
[13:49] SPEAKER_00: before yeah I get so it's funny because so many people have said the work
[13:56] SPEAKER_00: around is so innovative it's so it's so interesting why didn't I think of that
[14:02] SPEAKER_00: before and I just come back to like it seems so obvious to have kids at work
[14:09] SPEAKER_00: because so many of us are surrounded by kids well of course well of course but
[14:13] SPEAKER_00: it's not we don't have the systems in place to support parents at work and we
[14:17] SPEAKER_00: need to it shouldn't be that innovative for me to have created a co-working
[14:21] SPEAKER_01: space with childcare and yet here we are and it is I mean like truthfully
[14:28] SPEAKER_01: Toronto's a big city how many co-working spaces in Toronto offer childcare I'm
[14:33] SPEAKER_00: the only one that is an assistility so there are other ones at home there are
[14:37] SPEAKER_00: some people who out of their home have said that they will you know that they
[14:41] SPEAKER_00: can do some shared works based with a playroom for children but I am
[14:47] SPEAKER_00: you know one in Toronto who has built an office facility 13,000 square foot
[14:52] SPEAKER_00: office facility with a full classroom on site just thinking about that is
[14:58] SPEAKER_01: astonishing because we are not a small city the number of parents then it's
[15:06] SPEAKER_01: just astonishing to me that and I say this I think it's amazing that you were
[15:10] SPEAKER_01: thinking and this way and that you did create something that's so innovative
[15:14] SPEAKER_01: and it's astonishing to me that considering parents working parents and their
[15:20] SPEAKER_01: needs and the needs of those children is innovative in this day and age well I
[15:26] SPEAKER_00: think that's you know your question and you're you're sort of shocked with it is
[15:30] SPEAKER_00: exactly what I want everyone your listeners and their families did dig deep on
[15:35] SPEAKER_00: right dig deep on why it's so surprising that we haven't created systems to
[15:43] SPEAKER_00: get parents to work with their kids what what has been the thing we've been
[15:47] SPEAKER_00: doing instead what are the assumptions that we've made about how these children
[15:54] SPEAKER_00: will be cared for who is leaving the workforce stepping out reducing taking
[16:01] SPEAKER_00: less money not getting the promotion not doing the work travel leaning on
[16:07] SPEAKER_00: help who are making those choices and how have you personally benefited from
[16:15] SPEAKER_00: the people who have stepped out to raise kids and what did we think was gonna
[16:21] SPEAKER_00: happen like this is this is the thing right like I mean and the barriers are to
[16:27] SPEAKER_00: me very obvious and I think for many not like you said many employers never
[16:31] SPEAKER_00: even considered it I'll give you a tech sort of founder based example you think
[16:37] SPEAKER_00: of these accelerator programs so I have a business that luckily thankfully not
[16:41] SPEAKER_00: now in the pandemic before the pandemic was profitable not by a lot but given
[16:45] SPEAKER_00: that it's a brick and mortar space we were at least making more money than we
[16:49] SPEAKER_00: were spending and that to me was like the success of all successes we could hit
[16:52] SPEAKER_00: so I'm getting reached out to by many many many different accelerators and incubators
[16:59] SPEAKER_00: got to love these words in particular I love incubator because like hello
[17:02] SPEAKER_00: Uterus is an incubator but I'm a incubator incubator incubator accelerator you
[17:07] SPEAKER_00: gotta join us you gotta join us we gotta scale up we gotta scale up and every
[17:10] SPEAKER_00: time these accelerator programs and incubator programs there's six to eight
[17:15] SPEAKER_00: weeks long three months long in a city not Toronto waterloo
[17:21] SPEAKER_00: Alberta BC they require travel money daytime hours
[17:28] SPEAKER_00: old commitments in order to quote scale my company well of course when you look
[17:34] SPEAKER_00: at who who was in those accelerator programs and then people are
[17:39] SPEAKER_00: screaming there's a lack of diversity and there is there's absolutely a
[17:43] SPEAKER_00: lack of representation on black entrepreneurs black women in particular why
[17:48] SPEAKER_00: are these accelerator programs predominantly
[17:51] SPEAKER_00: filled by white this men because they're not
[17:57] SPEAKER_00: like I just get to me it is like connect a to be here the reason that we don't
[18:05] SPEAKER_00: see more women and marginalized genders and racialized communities in these
[18:09] SPEAKER_00: accelerator programs getting this funding accessing these amazing mentors who
[18:14] SPEAKER_00: are quote scaling these businesses up is because we can't
[18:18] SPEAKER_00: possibly go we can't even get to the table because we are at home with the kids
[18:25] SPEAKER_00: that we have no other option and it makes it because it's
[18:29] SPEAKER_00: meant to make more money and women predominantly make less than of course you
[18:33] SPEAKER_00: can stay home and like it is it's just it's so I could just scream about it forever
[18:38] SPEAKER_00: because there's so many conversations about pay equity and gaps and how do we
[18:44] SPEAKER_00: get more women in tech and we need training and mentorship and accelerator
[18:49] SPEAKER_00: is like they're giving me but all of that it's not the answer child care is the
[18:55] SPEAKER_00: answer you can't go anywhere near systems training if they can't get to the
[18:59] SPEAKER_01: training because they don't have child care yeah I could not I mean I could not
[19:04] SPEAKER_01: agree more and I love your passion and I love how you've said that
[19:08] SPEAKER_01: you know I'm gonna quote a book and I have nothing against this person
[19:12] SPEAKER_01: personally but I remember when Cheryl Sandberg's lean-in came out and
[19:17] SPEAKER_01: did you of course right and I got a lean-in right it was not that message it was
[19:24] SPEAKER_01: like it was lean-in to how things are already being I mean I'm doing a
[19:29] SPEAKER_01: that's a very terrible summary but it wasn't addressing the real problem
[19:36] SPEAKER_00: I such we recently actually I thought so brilliant uh forgive me I don't remember who sent it but
[19:42] SPEAKER_00: I saw this sort of hilarious tweet of what can you believe that women bought into the idea that
[19:48] SPEAKER_00: we need to lean in and take on more and I laughed out loud because I thought exactly like that
[19:53] SPEAKER_00: whole message of that book and and Cheryl Sandberg has admittedly I read
[19:58] SPEAKER_00: plan B where she sort of went back through and acknowledge her privilege and
[20:02] SPEAKER_00: appreciate it I don't think she went far enough but she did go back and sort of say like yeah I
[20:07] SPEAKER_00: didn't really see that by saying I had a partner at home that was doing the primary care
[20:14] SPEAKER_00: giving duties that that meant I was able to go in play golf and get a seat at the table it was like
[20:20] SPEAKER_00: yeah obviously like the thing is we can't like to put that level of pressure on women entrepreneurs
[20:28] SPEAKER_00: on you know people who are younger in their career and say really what you need to do is
[20:34] SPEAKER_00: is be more present ask the questions raise your hand get to the table it's like do you have any idea
[20:42] SPEAKER_00: how many things I'm jumping over in order to get anyone in the room let alone at the table like
[20:48] SPEAKER_00: it's and I think some of the things that are frustrating to me as an entrepreneur because I very
[20:54] SPEAKER_00: much am in this like what can be solved today let's just do that mindset and thankful not to working
[20:59] SPEAKER_00: government where there is a ton of bureaucracy that slows things down like I can move and so
[21:07] SPEAKER_00: what I see with child care is that there are some really good quick wins and easy ways to
[21:13] SPEAKER_00: immediately make the problem easier and that's not like let's get employers to start funding
[21:19] SPEAKER_00: child care because that's that's a lot to ask but what we can do is say you know maybe we don't have
[21:26] SPEAKER_00: team stand-up retros at 4 30 on a Friday like maybe that's maybe that's not the right time to put
[21:33] SPEAKER_00: that that weekly roundup that's so critical to the success of this project right when parents
[21:40] SPEAKER_00: need to be en route to take her pick up when day care is charged five dollars a minute for
[21:46] SPEAKER_00: lay pickup right the parents can't make that meaning let's put it at 2 o'clock let's not even ask
[21:52] SPEAKER_00: everybody what time works best because then we put the labor back on the parents in order to ask
[21:57] SPEAKER_00: for accommodation and that's where the stress comes in let's as employers think about what barriers
[22:04] SPEAKER_00: just assumed weren't barriers and are in fact creating it making it a lot harder for parents to
[22:11] SPEAKER_00: do their jobs and public doesn't actually cost that much money to make better
[22:16] SPEAKER_00: that's a real easy way to build up both loyalty retention productivity if that's the focus of
[22:25] SPEAKER_00: the company like think about the container in which your employees are participating with work
[22:31] SPEAKER_00: even if they're working remotely are the kids at home if they're going to school how are they
[22:37] SPEAKER_00: getting to school if your meeting starts at nine and school drop off is 850 imagine the level of
[22:45] SPEAKER_00: anxiety and stress on that parent that's trying to get their kids to school for 850 and then race
[22:51] SPEAKER_00: back home for that 9 a.m. check in that we all assume is fine because nobody has a commute in
[22:57] SPEAKER_00: the morning so we should all be fine for the 9 a.m. call right we can make things easier to
[23:04] SPEAKER_00: muller and that unlocks more brain space for tackling some of the more systemic barriers that
[23:12] SPEAKER_00: also need to be addressed but what's frustrating to me is we haven't done even the bare minimum yet
[23:19] SPEAKER_01: I agree I seriously hope that as a result of I mean I hate saying as a result of a pandemic but
[23:29] SPEAKER_01: you know maybe one of the outcomes of this pandemic that is positive is that people start to think
[23:35] SPEAKER_01: about these things in a more proactive way we start to be more inclusive of you know to what
[23:42] SPEAKER_01: you're saying a lot of companies just kind of go ahead with this is what we're doing and they do
[23:47] SPEAKER_01: put the owners back on the parents are anyone people of color whatever the case may be to speak up
[23:53] SPEAKER_01: and say no that doesn't work for me as opposed to thinking what would be the most inclusive way we
[23:58] SPEAKER_00: could do this from the beginning what do we what can we do what can what can we find out about
[24:06] SPEAKER_00: our team and what works best for them in order to further our business objectives like you
[24:13] SPEAKER_00: can still have the very profit driven business mindset and make child care priority you really
[24:22] SPEAKER_00: can and in fact I think they work hand in hand right that when we what I saw what I have seen
[24:28] SPEAKER_00: over and over and over again at the workaround is when parents show up on their timeline right so
[24:37] SPEAKER_00: they pick the hours they want the time of days that they want and they they make a plan to
[24:42] SPEAKER_00: bring their children here they drop them off they grab a coffee they sit down to work they are
[24:46] SPEAKER_00: more productive more focused more efficient in four hours here then they would be in a full day at
[24:53] SPEAKER_00: work why because they eliminated so much of that friction around the way work happens that they
[25:02] SPEAKER_00: just focus all right what is it what are the three top things that have to get done today I've got
[25:08] SPEAKER_00: this set amount of time that is uninterrupted I'm going to do it and it's going to be better quality
[25:13] SPEAKER_00: work because I wasn't interrupted because I wasn't taskswitch game because I wasn't racing off
[25:19] SPEAKER_00: for pickup I did the work that I wanted to do and guess what the outcomes were better I landed the
[25:24] SPEAKER_00: sale I hired the employee I you know shipped the feature like whatever it is that you're expecting
[25:30] SPEAKER_00: of your employees I promise you if you if you eliminate some of that friction you will see a better
[25:36] SPEAKER_00: output I've seen it prove that and I've watched you know part-time parents who we're doing as we
[25:43] SPEAKER_00: said sort of that flexible part-time work in order to make some money and try to do it go to running
[25:48] SPEAKER_00: agencies with employees and they moved from one hot desk to an office of six people here and they
[25:54] SPEAKER_00: did it in under two years that we haven't even been open for two years six months of which we were
[25:59] SPEAKER_00: closed by pandemic and I've watched these companies grow because they have more brain space to do the
[26:07] SPEAKER_00: work they wanted to do and child care is accessible and child care is flexible and in a lot of cases
[26:16] SPEAKER_00: still taken on as a financial burden for that family but in a way that it works for them a lot
[26:23] SPEAKER_00: better than you know fifty thousand dollars a year and in sort of the constraints that
[26:31] SPEAKER_00: that business is put on families it's just really really hard it's really hard to do anything
[26:38] SPEAKER_00: productively with these types of constraints and I agree with you that's where you know the
[26:43] SPEAKER_00: pandemic has been a bit of a gift for tearing everything down so we can use it as an opportunity
[26:48] SPEAKER_00: to rebuild the things that we want and the leaves the rest you know one of the things that you
[26:54] SPEAKER_01: said in there was that and I very much agree with it and I want to pick up on it really quickly
[26:58] SPEAKER_01: as this idea that you can be profit driven you can be a profit maybe not profit driven that might
[27:03] SPEAKER_01: not be like you can be a profitable business while still caring about these sorts of things
[27:08] SPEAKER_01: and I love that you said that because I you know I tell people all the time that the businesses
[27:13] SPEAKER_01: and the companies that I work with are people first their people first organizations and they're
[27:19] SPEAKER_01: all profitable they all are growing and they are all do even in the you know even with slowdowns
[27:26] SPEAKER_01: in the pandemic for some you know some smaller some larger slowdowns they're still growing and by
[27:34] SPEAKER_01: taking care of their people first they have you know more innovative solutions to coming out of this
[27:42] SPEAKER_01: pandemic people are more committed they're more engaged it's a whole different ballgame when you
[27:48] SPEAKER_01: actually think about the people in your organization the people you work with if you're running a
[27:53] SPEAKER_01: business the people you're going to hire if you're just starting hiring when you actually start
[27:57] SPEAKER_01: from let's think about the people first everything else can fall in line yes and I you know one of
[28:04] SPEAKER_00: the dominant conversations lately around employers and retention has been you know Canadian emergency
[28:12] SPEAKER_00: response benefits serve serve is discouraging people from working oh serve you know it's encouraging
[28:19] SPEAKER_00: people to stay home that bosses are what are encouraging people to stay home crappy workplaces is
[28:25] SPEAKER_00: what is encouraging people to stay home serve is not like let's be real especially in Toronto like
[28:31] SPEAKER_00: as to living as high two thousand dollars is not a windfall it's a lot of money it's not a windfall
[28:36] SPEAKER_00: an average can cost twenty five hundred dollars a month when daycare is twenty four hundred
[28:41] SPEAKER_00: dollars a month per kid serve is not a windfall we need to then say all right what's happening at
[28:50] SPEAKER_00: these workplaces that people would rather stay home take on the child care burden themselves try
[28:58] SPEAKER_00: part-time work whatever it is and collect serve because returning to work with all of its friction
[29:03] SPEAKER_00: and low pay and terrible bosses the home option is more attractive right we have to look at the
[29:10] SPEAKER_00: business itself for that and say maybe it's the business they don't want to go back to serve
[29:15] SPEAKER_00: keeping them alone yes that exactly amen no they're not trust me like I of course I
[29:24] SPEAKER_00: worried about that I haven't pleased I lost all I had to lay off all nine employees in March right
[29:29] SPEAKER_00: because when the pandemic hit and daycareers were ordered closed and so we were one of the first
[29:36] SPEAKER_00: down March 13 you know George closed I'm on my kitchen floor crying that bankruptcy is learning
[29:43] SPEAKER_00: and you know and just devastated that I had to lay off all nine of my staff and as we as we
[29:51] SPEAKER_00: started to talk about reopening as I started to discuss what rebuilding might look like I had my
[29:57] SPEAKER_00: conversation with all of my staff about coming back and it's a big ask we own a daycare it's high
[30:04] SPEAKER_00: risk yeah this is a lot to ask child care workers to return a hundred percent of my educator team
[30:11] SPEAKER_00: came back my front desk staff came back one of my front desk our 10 stuff didn't come back because
[30:18] SPEAKER_00: she moved to Nova Scotia which like good on you that's where our family is so no judgment she
[30:24] SPEAKER_00: laughed doesn't we love you Renee and come back soon but like other than the Nova's other than the one
[30:30] SPEAKER_00: who fled to Nova Scotia my staff came back right and they came back I believe because you know we're
[30:38] SPEAKER_00: trying to build something here and I'm honored that they believe in the mission and they care about
[30:42] SPEAKER_00: the families who come here and they care about their workplace and they want to see it rebuild
[30:47] SPEAKER_00: and so yeah even though it was risky even though we weren't sure how long we'd be open or how
[30:53] SPEAKER_00: many hours we'd be open or what it would involve and the cove the training and the cleaning and
[30:57] SPEAKER_00: there's so much bleach it still came back to work right they came back and we're doing it and it's
[31:03] SPEAKER_00: hard and we've cried here and we've had days where we've said like this is too much and I hate the
[31:09] SPEAKER_00: face shield and it plugs up my face for like it's a thing but we are in it because we are doing
[31:17] SPEAKER_00: good work and we care about our people and you know when my employer when my employees are sick
[31:24] SPEAKER_00: they're paid one of them got the notification on our phone but from the the Covid app that she
[31:30] SPEAKER_00: had been exposed it was like go leave immediately go and get the test we will pay you you're off paid
[31:38] SPEAKER_00: the entire time until your back negative positive about a year ago right like we these are small
[31:44] SPEAKER_00: things of course it cost me money to do that but to me it was a no-brainer like we have to take care
[31:51] SPEAKER_00: of our staff and we have to make sure they're safe and I'm rewarded with staff who you know had no
[32:00] SPEAKER_01: question about returning to work yeah I mean it says a lot about you as a leader Amanda and you
[32:08] SPEAKER_01: as a business owner but as well as the the business that you've built and the mission and vision
[32:14] SPEAKER_01: and values that you espouse and live into and I think that's phenomenal thank you yeah I think it's
[32:20] SPEAKER_00: you know it's not that hard I just think we sometimes we believe that the barriers that are in
[32:27] SPEAKER_00: place are insurmountable that you know we have a seduciary duty to our invest that to our investor is
[32:35] SPEAKER_00: we have responsibilities were limited by our industry regulations like I mean
[32:42] SPEAKER_00: maybe but there's a lot you can do within the parameters of your sector and within your work and
[32:49] SPEAKER_00: and like you said it's it just starts with putting people first moving barriers and really just
[32:56] SPEAKER_00: just noticing what it is that your employees need and then doing your best to get that for them
[33:01] SPEAKER_00: even though it's hard even though it's not perfect you know I would love to pay my employees more
[33:06] SPEAKER_00: I can't there's only so much we can do right now we're running at 20% of the revenue we were making
[33:13] SPEAKER_00: before the COVID so you gotta be honest about that since we're at right now but we're going to do
[33:18] SPEAKER_00: everything we can and we're going to take advantage of the subsidies that we can we're going to
[33:22] SPEAKER_00: access what we can and we're going to keep going because if we close and everybody's at a work
[33:27] SPEAKER_01: not so better absolutely and transparency right it's it's it you're really exemplifying
[33:34] SPEAKER_01: transparency at its best right not not transparency in the sense of what some people do and what
[33:41] SPEAKER_01: some owners do which is oversharing for sympathy or for an out or to you know have an excuse not
[33:49] SPEAKER_01: to do something but really being transparent so everyone has the best information to make the
[33:55] SPEAKER_00: decisions that work for them yeah and then you'll be rewarded you're rewarded it's not
[34:00] SPEAKER_00: to work hard for you and that's what the whole point is like it actually in turn is more affordable
[34:06] SPEAKER_00: and more productive and it's the same with parents at work like the parents at work are incredibly
[34:14] SPEAKER_00: efficient because we have to be we just have to get some of the barriers out of the way I love that
[34:20] SPEAKER_01: you said that so one of the things that I very distinctly remember talking to you about when we
[34:25] SPEAKER_01: first met at that co-working space was speaking about that was as a parent how when you were at work
[34:33] SPEAKER_01: and when you were doing what you were doing you had to be more focused and efficient because you
[34:38] SPEAKER_01: knew you weren't going home and jumping back into work or catching up or anything like that that
[34:42] SPEAKER_01: it was really this was your time and I have such a distinct memory of that conversation because how
[34:48] SPEAKER_01: you framed it I don't think I'd ever heard it framed that way before yeah I really I really take
[34:57] SPEAKER_00: any opportunity I can to smash the myth that hiring employees is a is a professional hiring
[35:04] SPEAKER_00: parents is a professional risk or that parents are distracted or God forbid you know the bias that
[35:09] SPEAKER_00: not to hire young women because they're baby making agents like please trust me that if you
[35:15] SPEAKER_00: watched a parent of young children in particular who sleep deprived who knows that they've got
[35:22] SPEAKER_00: exactly to the minute seven seven and a half hours to get their work done and when they go home
[35:27] SPEAKER_00: they're going to make meals and do bath bed time maybe they'll even get back online at night
[35:32] SPEAKER_00: but probably not because they know they've got exactly a set number of hours that they can sleep
[35:38] SPEAKER_00: before they have to get up and do it again like you build a level of both resiliency and
[35:43] SPEAKER_00: efficiency that is completely survival related what we have to right and it does produce
[35:53] SPEAKER_00: really great work and I think that's where resentment builds right I felt this with lots of
[35:59] SPEAKER_00: employers before is that you know I return from that leave I have two kids I've done this twice
[36:03] SPEAKER_00: where two different experiences with different employers of you know going on leave and then coming
[36:09] SPEAKER_00: back and coming back to this sort of like I forget you know oh let's sort of ramp you back in
[36:17] SPEAKER_00: for the next six months or oh we're going to do you a favor and not book you for any travel or
[36:22] SPEAKER_00: we're not going to put you on the big hard client we're going to get you working on this softer
[36:26] SPEAKER_00: project that's not as intense and it's somehow framed as doing me a favor because I have kids
[36:33] SPEAKER_00: it's such a punch it's such a gut punch because I'm capable of so much my my economic potential my
[36:42] SPEAKER_00: personal potential is so great because they're so little time to waste and when
[36:50] SPEAKER_00: faced with with the barriers and discrimination you know as as a woman and when I have white
[36:55] SPEAKER_00: privilege on top of it I imagine as a black entrepreneur black employee it is very very very hard
[37:03] SPEAKER_00: to stay motivated to do good work when you're faced with the assumption that because you have kids
[37:09] SPEAKER_00: you will be less productive or you are more destructive or you are going to somehow leave
[37:15] SPEAKER_00: when in fact believe me we're happy we're happy to be a work thank you
[37:20] SPEAKER_00: busy at home to come so happy to get to the work crowd every day so happy to deal with payroll
[37:27] SPEAKER_00: because I'm so tired of picking up Lego it's right it's it's real adult connecting time right
[37:35] SPEAKER_01: when you're going into a co-working space or you're going into a company you get to this is adult
[37:40] SPEAKER_00: conversation oh it's great yeah it's great I'm so happy to be there like don't tell me that you
[37:46] SPEAKER_00: you know trying to do me a favor by giving me less work because like all I want is work
[37:50] SPEAKER_00: right I guess what it's what I want I want to do that I want to do well I want to grow my career
[37:55] SPEAKER_00: I want to you know pick back up where I left off I don't want to be treated with kids loves
[38:03] SPEAKER_00: I'm intended you know I yeah I do want I want all of it and that's it's part of why I eventually
[38:10] SPEAKER_00: quit my job is that because you know it's just friction after friction on top of the burn of
[38:17] SPEAKER_00: of spending all this money on childcare and it's just like it just really felt like we could prove
[38:25] SPEAKER_00: if you can prove that kids can exist in a workplace and parents can be productive and we can
[38:30] SPEAKER_00: unlock the potential for so many more ideas the work around us and have to be be all end up for
[38:36] SPEAKER_00: for kids at work innovation in fact I don't have the capacity to take that on I want more
[38:42] SPEAKER_00: innovations and more ideas and competitors because it means that we are reducing the burden
[38:48] SPEAKER_00: on working parents and marginalized genders and that was the whole point and I say this with
[38:55] SPEAKER_01: a ton of love I hope that you get a ton of competitors I hope that lots of places open up because
[39:03] SPEAKER_01: there is such a demand for this I also hope it means you get to scale and expand but you know
[39:11] SPEAKER_01: truthfully I say that with love and not in a in a way to take away anything from the work around
[39:16] SPEAKER_01: but that would be such an example of things actually changing yeah oh I think it's great we can do
[39:23] SPEAKER_00: like this is scarcity versus the London mindset like it's and right and and competitors will open
[39:31] SPEAKER_00: and the work ground will succeed and we will open more locations and I will continue to grow as a
[39:38] SPEAKER_00: business owner I continue to build out my team's capacity and I will see other co-working spaces
[39:44] SPEAKER_00: of childcare open like that because ants means we're getting more parents back to work we are
[39:50] SPEAKER_00: resolving our economic challenges we are creating space to tackle the systemic barriers that have
[39:56] SPEAKER_00: kept so few from really realizing their their professional potential because of all of this and we
[40:04] SPEAKER_00: can tackle it when we knock down some of these things that are solvable yeah absolutely so I want to
[40:11] SPEAKER_01: be mindful of getting to the end of our time but I do want to ask if you were to give advice to
[40:19] SPEAKER_01: any entrepreneurs out there any parents out there who are thinking of starting a business or
[40:26] SPEAKER_01: stepping into I want to ask 18 different questions is what this question is revealing as I try and
[40:32] SPEAKER_01: phrase it I want to ask you 18 different questions but I'm going to try and put it in one so here we
[40:35] SPEAKER_01: go let me try this again what advice would you give to entrepreneurs out there especially if they're
[40:44] SPEAKER_01: parents whether it's based on your experiences an entrepreneur or running the work around where you
[40:49] SPEAKER_00: get to see so many entrepreneurs and entrepreneur parents you know I sort of have I have two
[40:57] SPEAKER_00: answers that in some ways are in conflict but I'll give you both I love it the first is that I think
[41:05] SPEAKER_00: we've we've I've heard the rhetoric and the narrative that you know with with the pandemic a lot
[41:10] SPEAKER_00: is on the hold right and so we can use the pandemic the pandemic can be a very convenient excuse not
[41:18] SPEAKER_00: to move forward right we can say I can't get that promotion I'm not going to shake the waters with
[41:23] SPEAKER_00: my employer I'm not going to quit my job and start a company because there's too much I'm known
[41:28] SPEAKER_00: as too much uncertainty pandemic pandemic lockdown lockdown no and I would say like trust me
[41:35] SPEAKER_00: when I tell you the cis white bros status quo are not saying no they're going and they're pushing still
[41:41] SPEAKER_00: so keep pushing and do it and start the company and know that there are more supports than ever
[41:47] SPEAKER_00: for in particular marginalized gender as a woman in the workforce they're they're spending
[41:51] SPEAKER_00: we have heard from the throne speech in Canada that there's new diversity and intersectional
[41:57] SPEAKER_00: task forces whatever the hell that means but like somebody's talking about this and that's what's
[42:01] SPEAKER_00: important is that if you have an idea and you know that you can start to generate some income from
[42:08] SPEAKER_00: it do it do it and figure it out because there are supports in place that will help you and and
[42:14] SPEAKER_00: it's important and then my conflicting answer is like have some graces for what is possible during
[42:19] SPEAKER_00: a goddamn pandemic right we are all very tired I'm exhausted I have every intention to build
[42:26] SPEAKER_00: multiple locations for the work around I'd every intention to grow this company and I'm very
[42:31] SPEAKER_00: aware that I am currently a single parent the two children who are at school during a pandemic
[42:37] SPEAKER_00: with a 13,000 square foot space with the least personally secured against my house like all of
[42:43] SPEAKER_00: that is true at the same time so there's only so much that I can do today and part of what I know
[42:50] SPEAKER_00: I can do today is to rest and recover and take care of of my own mental health and stay in
[43:00] SPEAKER_00: positive mindset as much as I can so that I am ready to really kill it when I have the capacity
[43:06] SPEAKER_00: to do so what I am not doing is saying oh the world is sending me a signal that this is a bad idea
[43:13] SPEAKER_00: or oh you know it's it's really hard right now and I'm scared about the future of the company so
[43:20] SPEAKER_00: I probably shouldn't you probably shouldn't put any more into it like no I'm doubling down on my
[43:26] SPEAKER_00: efforts in my results because I know more than ever that companies built by diverse
[43:32] SPEAKER_00: workforce by diverse entrepreneurs are the way that we are going to not rebuild what exist in
[43:38] SPEAKER_00: before and so if you can figure out how to reconcile both having grace and keeping it
[43:45] SPEAKER_00: within what you're capable of doing and pushing and quitting your job like that's my advice to you
[43:51] SPEAKER_01: you know you say those are in conflict but truly I think those that's a that's a both and situation
[43:56] SPEAKER_01: they're not actually in conflict both of the thing both of those things can coexist you know we
[44:02] SPEAKER_01: can give ourselves grace and take space for our mental health while still moving forward in some
[44:09] SPEAKER_01: way and chasing a dream and so I think that is I think that is yeah absolutely we can do it we can
[44:16] SPEAKER_00: build the companies we want there's an appetite for it like never before there's an appetite for
[44:22] SPEAKER_00: different I mean there's I don't think we ever thought that especially in Ontario that the health
[44:27] SPEAKER_00: care system that I could call up my doctor in the same day get a virtual video appointment for the
[44:32] SPEAKER_00: pink eye prescription I need for my kid and exchange an eight hour like drop in walking clinic
[44:40] SPEAKER_00: appointment for like 15 minute zoom call like I don't think I saw that coming anytime soon but look
[44:45] SPEAKER_00: it here we are we have an appetite for change right now we have an appetite for new we have an
[44:50] SPEAKER_00: appetite for failure in a different way and honestly if things fail blame the pandemic
[45:02] SPEAKER_00: COVID COVID screwed may not be who's a great idea was COVID so like just try do we can
[45:09] SPEAKER_00: lean on people where you can and and know that like you know we don't really know when we're
[45:14] SPEAKER_00: going to get out of this but I think even if it stays awful for a number of years we can work
[45:19] SPEAKER_00: within what we have to make it better for those who are here and need it to be better I couldn't
[45:26] SPEAKER_01: agree with you more thank you Amanda for taking the time to chat with us the link to your website
[45:33] SPEAKER_01: will be in the show notes for this episode but I want to tell our listeners to go check out
[45:39] SPEAKER_01: obviously www.theworkaround.ca you can learn more about Amanda's co-working space there and what she's
[45:47] SPEAKER_01: up to and go check it out if you're in the East End of Toronto or in the area go it's an
[45:53] SPEAKER_00: absolutely incredible space thank you so much and have a great week thank you you too