Explaining why insurance policies, expectations and the reality of what you get, don’t always match up

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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Celine Williams hosting for Montereo for Canada's podcast.
[00:10] SPEAKER_01: My guest today is Adam Nyman, who is the co-founder of Kubo No, an author of Fortune or Fiction
[00:15] SPEAKER_01: why the beer on banker concept is flawed. Welcome, Adam.
[00:20] SPEAKER_00: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:22] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, it's my pleasure.
[00:25] SPEAKER_01: I'd love if you could tell us a little bit about your journey as an entrepreneur and to get you to the point of writing this book, which has come out fairly recently.
[00:38] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
[00:41] SPEAKER_00: So after university, I moved out west for a year, needed a year off.
[00:46] SPEAKER_00: I didn't really know what to do with my life.
[00:48] SPEAKER_00: So just skiing taught skiing out in Whistler for a year.
[00:52] SPEAKER_00: Living the dream.
[00:54] SPEAKER_00: You live in the dream, man. It was great.
[00:58] SPEAKER_00: And I guess I got the entrepreneurial bug out there and you know, find, you know, used equipment, refurbished it and flip it.
[01:07] SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like a long-term business, but not being paid very much to find extra ways to make some cash.
[01:15] SPEAKER_00: So when I got back home, honestly, it's like Neverland, you know, you would hang out with people.
[01:20] SPEAKER_00: I was in my early 20s in their late 30s and 40s who stayed out there their entire life and it's they never grew up.
[01:27] SPEAKER_00: So even though I wanted to kind of stay out there because it was awesome, you know that that's no way to at least for me it wasn't like a long-term strategy.
[01:36] SPEAKER_00: Come back after a year.
[01:38] SPEAKER_00: Don't want to go do a masters for sake of going back to school.
[01:43] SPEAKER_00: And I had nothing to do and just started applying for jobs and because I had my resume online, I was contacted by an insurance company that basically said you want to sell life insurance.
[01:55] SPEAKER_00: So my answer was no.
[01:57] SPEAKER_00: And it said, well, you can make 80K a year.
[02:01] SPEAKER_00: We give you leads and all you need is a car.
[02:04] SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, OK, like why not give it a shot.
[02:09] SPEAKER_00: Also at the time online, I noticed that there were a lot of, you know, decent paying financial services jobs and all of them required kind of one to three years or certified sales experience.
[02:19] SPEAKER_00: So I said to myself, you know what, I'll try this out.
[02:21] SPEAKER_00: You could make unlimited money, opportunity unlimited, right?
[02:25] SPEAKER_00: Sure, we've all heard the pitch before, whether it's one of a number of different MLM style schemes or companies.
[02:32] SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know what, I'll drink the cool aid for a few years.
[02:35] SPEAKER_00: If I can build a team and make some money, sweet, why not?
[02:38] SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of young people seem to be doing very well in this.
[02:42] SPEAKER_00: And if I survive a year and a half or two years and it doesn't work out for me, I have the certified sales experience.
[02:48] SPEAKER_00: And there are all these jobs with insurance companies or banks that I could get.
[02:52] SPEAKER_00: So it kind of checked a few boxes for me in that sense, you know, short term potential, long term potential and at least I'm kind of building a resume for myself.
[03:01] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so I needed to get licensed and it took me about two months to pass the tests and do that.
[03:09] SPEAKER_00: And then started training immediately.
[03:13] SPEAKER_00: So it was, even though it was MLM style, the nice part about it is, I don't know, people I'm sure people listening have been multi-level marketing companies before.
[03:22] SPEAKER_00: Everyone has a potential client and a potential employee.
[03:25] SPEAKER_00: At least with this one, it was nice, it was completely separate.
[03:28] SPEAKER_00: So the leads that we got, they were, you know, insurance leads, people that we could go sell insurance to, but the idea wasn't to go try to hire them on.
[03:38] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[03:38] SPEAKER_00: What I saw in the business separate from the actual building a team business.
[03:41] SPEAKER_00: So we got these leads through captive network through unions.
[03:46] SPEAKER_00: So we were brought into these home via unions.
[03:49] SPEAKER_00: So we were getting a list. We make order to 50 calls a day. I'd book four to six appointments Monday to Friday in the evenings and then usually one morning Saturdays or Sundays.
[03:59] SPEAKER_00: And the idea of four to six appointments a night. One would say no. One would say yes in the three in the middle were based on your ability to close.
[04:08] SPEAKER_00: Everything was scripted and it was all about kind of going through the script, memorizing it because it worked, memorizing the objections because they worked.
[04:16] SPEAKER_00: Not talking too much, but just the right amount getting comfortable with silence.
[04:21] SPEAKER_00: And once you got good at the sale side, then the idea was okay. Now you go build a team.
[04:26] SPEAKER_00: So you can have 10 atoms out there doing that for you and you can make money off of all their sales. That was the idea.
[04:34] SPEAKER_00: And I was able to build a team pretty quickly because there was a gentleman in our office who was being paid to teach the life licensing course.
[04:41] SPEAKER_00: I passed it pretty quickly. It was comfortable with the material and I offered to teach the course for free. If I could kind of have the pick of people who would be put under me from the training classes.
[04:53] SPEAKER_00: So it was great because I didn't have to really worry about going on monster anymore to find my leads to find people to hire.
[05:00] SPEAKER_00: He needed people to teach the course and you'd have, you know, sometimes five up to 20 people in the room sometimes.
[05:06] SPEAKER_00: And the ones that I connected with the ones that I built a relationship with that like me that I like, I would just ask and he would kind of put them on my team.
[05:14] SPEAKER_00: And it was constantly like two steps forward 1.9 steps back.
[05:21] SPEAKER_00: They'd come, they'd stay, make a few sales, they realize it wasn't for them and then they'd leave.
[05:26] SPEAKER_00: And I think after a few years, I had maybe two or three guys on my team, but I just knew that they wouldn't survive.
[05:32] SPEAKER_00: I never was one to like be able to drink the Kool-Aid for very long.
[05:37] SPEAKER_00: I'm can only sell their product. You can only sell their insurance. You have to like position it in like a really weird way.
[05:43] SPEAKER_00: It was only funeral plan insurance. So someone had life insurance. We would say to the Mo, that's great because this is not life insurance. This is just for your funeral, which is, I don't know if it's not necessarily dishonest, but it's not, I don't know, not the cleanest, I guess you could say.
[06:02] SPEAKER_00: A good example is term insurance. We didn't call it term insurance. We would call it replacement income. So instead of saying, Selene, I'm going to give you 100,000 of term insurance, I would say, we're going to, if something happens to you, your family will get $2,000 a month every month for 50 months or 1000 a month every month for 100 months.
[06:27] SPEAKER_00: So it was like, it was twists and it was real insurance. Don't get me wrong. Like, you know, there were sadly some claims.
[06:36] SPEAKER_00: But after doing that for two to three years, constantly rebuilding teams, my girlfriend at the time saying, I'm not staying with you with this type of schedule.
[06:46] SPEAKER_00: I just knew I was ready to move on. I was lucky that through my mom, I met a gentleman in the insurance financial services industry who did on the traditional side. He was licensed, he could place business with any insurance company wanted.
[07:02] SPEAKER_00: He managed investments as well and he invited me in and gave me an opportunity to start from scratch on my own. And through him, he connected me with a few older advisors who had their own books of businesses that were small that they were one was looking to leave the business and move back home to the UK.
[07:19] SPEAKER_00: And it was great because I basically spent, you know, $20,000 for a lock of 400 clients. And that was amazing. Like I worked for three years learning how to deal with warm leads or semi warm, both semi warm, let's say, lukewarm leads. And now I had 400 like actual customers those dress that printed them all out and paid by page calls, introductions, you know, kitchen table meetings and those 400.
[07:46] SPEAKER_00: I knew for a fact it was would last me two and a half years. So the way I saw it, it's like sweet. I have two and a half years of runway, not including the referrals. I will invariably. I didn't just it's fair to see me if you put working to people don't give your name. So not 400 referrals, but nonetheless, that kind of gave me something to start from. And I'm still working off that list today. It's just kind of snowballed into, you know, ideally a bigger ball, I guess, you know.
[08:13] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So then what was the transition from that to thinking, you know what I want to do. I want to write a book.
[08:24] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good question. So a lot of times in my industry, when we're selling insurance and investment concepts, it's always forward looking. It's always like, this is what it is. This is what you're starting with. And this is what it'll be like in 20 30 40 50 years.
[08:43] SPEAKER_00: We don't do a lot of, oh, this was purchased back in 1971. And how does it look like today that really doesn't happen at all. Generally because people don't really.
[08:57] SPEAKER_00: Or at all open up their parents insurance policies. Most people really don't know what they have. And when someone passes away, they're not going to be like, well, I wonder what dad was promised back in 1985.
[09:09] SPEAKER_00: No, like you're dealing with a lot. You just take the money. You got the money and everyone was on with their lives.
[09:16] SPEAKER_00: But through having these old books of businesses, one of them I've been policy on the books from 1969.
[09:23] SPEAKER_00: I started realizing that none of them were the vast majority of them looked anything like what was promised.
[09:30] SPEAKER_00: And thankfully the people that I took over from they had some decent records. So like I saw the paperwork from the 70s in the early 80s.
[09:39] SPEAKER_00: And nowadays the values are a fraction of what was promised to them way back when.
[09:46] SPEAKER_00: And it all came to a head when I met a client who is not receiving any dividends from this type of participating insurance policy.
[09:55] SPEAKER_00: And I would ask the insurance company questions and I felt like I wouldn't get out of put answers so much so that it's it's hard to understand exactly how these policies work.
[10:06] SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, they're sold in a way that of course it makes sense. And of course you should get this because people have been doing this forever.
[10:16] SPEAKER_00: And we've been paying out dividends forever. And that really in my opinion based on what I saw hasn't been the case.
[10:21] SPEAKER_00: So because I've always had a hard time marketing myself, we want to say never did just because I've never been the whole you need life insurance to protect your family type of guy.
[10:32] SPEAKER_00: What are you going to do with your dad? What are you going to do if you die? That's I just can't sell that way. It's way too uncomfortable asking those questions.
[10:40] SPEAKER_00: I guess also because of someone tried to I'm really logical at least I try to be and if someone tries to get emotional with me like I know it's a trick.
[10:49] SPEAKER_00: And I think it I think that it was back to my days selling the funeral plans because the emotional side of selling was always pushed so hard.
[10:57] SPEAKER_00: I think now I'm just hyper sensitive to it. And anytime someone tries to twist my emotions my you know the red light goes up.
[11:08] SPEAKER_00: But basically I've always been looking for a way to market myself and then around this time I saw a lot of stuff online with regards to the beer on banking and infinite banking concept, which kind of makes these long term claims about how great these products will be in 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years specifically infinite banking would be you know dividends for life.
[11:26] SPEAKER_00: So if someone's claiming that you get dividends for life meanwhile I have clients who aren't getting dividends for life.
[11:34] SPEAKER_00: If they're building their business off of these claims there's no reason I can't build my own business off of being an opposing view to these claims.
[11:44] SPEAKER_00: And I did have kind of no everyone wants to kind of thumb their nose to the system sometimes you know I wanted to maybe have this under article get it in the papers but I just realized like I don't want to battle anybody.
[11:55] SPEAKER_00: I don't want to battle the insurance companies you know 99% of what they sell is important good and needed and I thought to myself and it was actually my give my marketers credit for this they thought it's much better if you and a tone down is an ebook and of an information piece something I can build business off of rather just trying to be a right fighter in a battle that you know I'm probably going to lose that really doesn't serve me or my professional needs or or anybody for that matter you know.
[12:23] SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned infinite banking in there and I'm wondering if you can for those listening who are like what what was that term that was used because I guarantee there's going to be people who have never heard of what what does that mean and what is the like since it's part of the reason that you wrote this book to begin with can you just tell us a little about what that is.
[12:47] SPEAKER_00: So the infinite banking and be your own become your own banker or your banking concept is the idea of using investment grade insurance as a long term investment asset which it can be and it is the infinite banking and be your own banking pitch is very specific.
[13:11] SPEAKER_00: So it says the problem with borrowing money from the bank and no one likes to borrow money they only do because they have to is that you're paying them interest that's the cost of using someone else's money but if I said to you what if you could borrow from yourself.
[13:29] SPEAKER_00: You people will be like well yeah I don't want to if I borrow from C I B C C I B C gets the interest but if I borrow from myself I get the interest it's much I want that interest how do I do it and it's through dividend paying life insurance you buy a policy that's a life insurance policy and as part of the premiums you're making contributions to this participating fund and at the end of the year that fund pays you.
[13:59] SPEAKER_00: Returns in the form of dividends and because those dividends will come back to you because the interest that you're paying into the fund when you borrow against your policy is coming back to you in the form of dividends you are effectively recapturing that interest and making the interest.
[14:20] SPEAKER_00: And I had a few problems with these claims because a it's impossible to know whether or not you'll continue to get dividends for life because as I said my experience with my clients are getting fractions or if you're getting nothing they're not getting dividends so you know you're who knows if that's going to be the case and secondly.
[14:43] SPEAKER_00: Saying that you're making your own interest is a very specific claim saying that you're borrowing from yourself is a very specific claim but you're effectively not you are borrowing from a fund and paying them interest and it's true you have invested interest in that fund but the problem is is you don't you aren't paid dividends based on the performance of the underlying fund you're being paid dividends based on the accuracy of assumptions that they are making for you.
[15:09] SPEAKER_00: So if you've been presented this concept you see a chart of values and numbers always go up and your policy is going to be worth a million now and 10 million when you're 85 and you pass away and then when it goes to your family so the question is how do they get from a million to 10 million.
[15:26] SPEAKER_00: Well if you are a traditional investment guy you build in a rate of return and that compounds annually and you can say I believe it's going to be 5% a year or this stock or this fund is going to do 5% a year for the next 20 years and this is what you'll have and then you can dispute whether or not that 5% is accurate and you can say well what if let's go in the low end let's call what what if a 1% or what if it does really well that's 10% then you know exactly kind of where the returns come from and you can say I believe it could be closer to 10% because these are the same.
[15:55] SPEAKER_00: So if you're a stock or it's poised for growth and Tesla is going to be the next you fucking thing so there's many reasons why two people can agree or disagree but you know what someone's returns will be the problem is is that these illustrations it's set in stone.
[16:09] SPEAKER_00: The insurance companies making certain predictions.
[16:12] SPEAKER_00: The problem is you're not told what those predictions are and what I've learned is that these predictions are very heavily depended heavily dependent on interest rates.
[16:21] SPEAKER_00: So we're in a rising interest rate environment this could very well be one of the best times in history to buy one of these participating policies because as interest rate rise you have the benefit of those dividends which are heavily dependent on interest rates.
[16:36] SPEAKER_00: My only problem is that you're not told what those assumptions are they're actually proprietary so if you say an insurance company okay so you know what the laps is you know how many people will cancel you know people will die you know how many people will get second bar or you know how many people will keep the policy people going to the market.
[16:51] SPEAKER_00: However you pretty much are confident what the returns will be within a certain range you know they're not going to be negative you know they're not going to be plus 10 over 30 40 50 year period look at the S&P I think we're pretty confident what the returns will be therefore what are the assumptions and they say well though that's our secret sauce.
[17:10] SPEAKER_00: It's not good enough for me and I'm not saying they can't have their secret sauce that's okay but I think if you're going to be putting a lot of money into something for the rest of your life I think it's fair to ask those questions and I think it's fair for them to kind of tell you what their assumptions are and I also think objectively this should be what the competitive landscape is different insurance companies making different predictions with regards to where they see the world in 20 30 40 50 years we're at ABC insurance we're going to be able to see what they're going to do.
[17:38] SPEAKER_00: We are big into AI in space that's where our investments are going or other insurance company says no we believe interest rates are going to keep going up we're all about government debt because that will play the deal and let people decide or even share what their assumptions are and I can evaluate but if an interest company says to me you know something's proprietary and we're not going to tell you listen I'm just going to decide not to buy that product at a deeper level if this is the case you can't make these claims like a you're going to make a
[18:08] SPEAKER_00: bit of it in for life because there's no way to know and be you can't make the claim that you're making the interest because you're not making the interest I gave the example in my book about someone who has a paid off condo and borrowing from a bank so condos paid off it's worth I don't know a million bucks you go to C IBC and they say we'll give you a line of credit for 650,000 against the value of your condo and then take that 650,000 dollars and actually buy C IBC stock that's actually pretty good strategy because the
[18:38] SPEAKER_00: dividends will pretty much almost pay for all the interest expense and then you participate in the upside of the stock as it goes up in price now even though that's a good thing to do as
[18:50] SPEAKER_00: born against your life insurance policies a good thing to do I don't think any advisor would say now you're recapturing the interest you pay to C IBC now you're making
[18:58] SPEAKER_00: with C IBC makes like you're not making with C IBC makes you are borrowing to invest to make money which is like awesome and like totally do it but you don't need to
[19:10] SPEAKER_00: mischaracterize what it is and make it seem more than what it is for the purpose of selling an investment and insurance
[19:15] SPEAKER_00: advisors shouldn't make these products seem like more than what they are for the process purpose of selling an insurance policy because what's
[19:22] SPEAKER_00: happening is people are buying these things who otherwise wouldn't buy it based on these assumptions and that's my big thing these are great products for like
[19:31] SPEAKER_00: Uber wealthy and wealthy people do use them and they use them because they have more money than the rest of us and if they need more things to put money into
[19:39] SPEAKER_00: but I don't think someone with significantly less means who's trying to build that portfolio try to get started I don't think it's smart for
[19:47] SPEAKER_00: them to buy into this concept based on this misconception you know if you're only buying this because I believe that I'm making the interest instead of the interest losing me that's just incorrect.
[20:01] SPEAKER_01: I very much appreciate the explanation and I think that distinction is really important we don't always think about it there are products that if you have a ton of
[20:09] SPEAKER_01: disposable income and you're looking for places to invest great this might be the thing to do but if you are thinking this isn't you know I
[20:18] SPEAKER_01: still get to borrow money and make my like make the interest back and this makes sense for is going to save me money in the long run or whatever
[20:25] SPEAKER_01: that logic that it triggers in your brain because it does when you hear that you're like so I'm saving money like I'm not.
[20:31] SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's not spending yeah right yeah they're not doing you a favor like it's I was introduced to somebody who read my who read my ebook
[20:41] SPEAKER_00: weeks a few days ago and she's been battling with her advisor with regards to this concept because she just haven't hasn't been able to get her hand
[20:50] SPEAKER_00: head around it and after a few chats with her she is and the first thing she said to me was I don't need life in
[20:55] SPEAKER_00: church I'm like okay well you're you're done that's it that's the first you know step of the flow chart do I need life
[21:02] SPEAKER_00: insurance if no then like it's over then you don't need life insurance if yes then like it can continue and maybe we'll get down
[21:09] SPEAKER_00: the cascade to why this is a fit in your insurance portfolio the irony behind this ladies that she's a real estate
[21:18] SPEAKER_00: investor and she's a decent portfolio with a bunch of debt on it and her whole plan is to like spend it all there's
[21:25] SPEAKER_00: no kids she has a common loss spouse but they keep everything separate and her goals to kind of sell it all at like some age
[21:33] SPEAKER_00: and then just spend the rest of the money so it's head to her I'm like actually you should probably get a critical on this
[21:39] SPEAKER_00: policy like if you get sick there's an influx of capital it wipes the debt on all your properties and there's your goal and if you
[21:47] SPEAKER_00: sort of and if you don't get sick over the next 20 years your product your properties are paid off anywhere and you hit your
[21:54] SPEAKER_00: goal so the irony is that her advisor was so focused on selling this beyond banking concept that there was actually a bigger sale there that
[22:07] SPEAKER_00: with an actual need and I found it really funny because I was like oh this guy's going to make a lot of money on this like I think that's the point
[22:15] SPEAKER_00: here is he doesn't really care about your needs and then ironically at the end of the meeting like holy shit I just pitched something like twice the price
[22:22] SPEAKER_00: but actually on the need and it kind of made me think that wow this this beer on banking infinite banking concept it's actually a cult it's it's not like a product it's it's people that only or
[22:35] SPEAKER_00: advisors who only see who see every insurance sale through this lens now I don't blame them for it you know they're trained by someone who told
[22:43] SPEAKER_00: them that I never told them that and I guarantee you more advisors would feel the way I did if they kind of the experience of
[22:51] SPEAKER_00: taking over old books of business like I'm not some genius here you know it's not like I went into the library try to search old life insurance policy what's going on
[22:59] SPEAKER_00: this kind of happened by chance just fell into my lap and I'm happy it did you know because it's very important to kind of look at what didn't work then and not try to do better now
[23:11] SPEAKER_00: and I mentioned this in my book the the whole vanishing premium situation with insurance companies dating back to the 70s
[23:17] SPEAKER_00: and major lawsuits why because advisors then made very specific claims with the support of the insurance company which is you buy this you pay for it for four or five years and then the dividends pay for it and you won't have to pay for it anymore and that was very specific they were sued because I bought this I paid for for five years
[23:37] SPEAKER_00: but now I have to pay again you said I wouldn't have to pay anymore so I'm suing you now the claims are much more open ended like oh you would capture the interest
[23:45] SPEAKER_00: dividends for life
[23:47] SPEAKER_00: pension they're not talking about five years from now they're talking about 50 years from now and like who the hell is going to be around in 50 years from now to evaluate this
[23:55] SPEAKER_00: and the worst part is is God forbid if something happens to you people confuse the insurance proceeds with the policy working so you know I sold the policy of like this to you and you kind of you know
[24:11] SPEAKER_00: you
[24:12] SPEAKER_00: passed away your family would get the money and they would be like oh it worked well yeah of course like it's life insurance but that doesn't necessarily mean
[24:20] SPEAKER_00: in the long run you would have your family would have received on paper what was promised and the reality is is your kids and your children's children when that check does come they're not going to go back into
[24:34] SPEAKER_00: dad's documents and be like oh was this was this what you were promised no they
[24:39] SPEAKER_00: someone just passed away they got the life insurance money it's done you know so it's kind of kind of sad in that sense you know they kind of are capitalizing on the fact that the
[24:48] SPEAKER_00: cans being kicked so far down the road you know most of the people selling these products today they're going to be dead you know by the time
[24:55] SPEAKER_00: there's any issue being noticed with these policies and I see I don't think they they know this I don't think they've seen what I see and they're just trying to
[25:01] SPEAKER_00: I won't lie sorry man everyone's trying to make money make a buck people want to get ahead life's really expensive
[25:10] SPEAKER_00: big policies equal big sales it's a safe asset that you can borrow against the likelihood of someone over
[25:17] SPEAKER_00: five to ten to fifteen years really noticing that something is off it's very low
[25:23] SPEAKER_00: um I think about the example of the
[25:27] SPEAKER_00: how NASA they fired a satellite into like an asteroid like hundreds of miles away to see if they could deflect it off course trying to protect us from and that's kind of like what I like in it too
[25:39] SPEAKER_00: um even though the numbers are off by a little bit you know over 30 40 50 year period that could be massive difference the same idea you just push that asteroid off course just a millimeter and something that would be a doomsday rock is now just something else that's you know flying by earth and it's the same thing with this I see illustration
[25:56] SPEAKER_00: that they're only off by a few thousand bucks in the first year a second year but that's a few thousand dollars in your one or two could be millions of dollars in 50 or 60 years and every year it's like a death by a thousand cuts you're not there's no going to be one there's never going to be one aha moment
[26:12] SPEAKER_00: did you're like oh here it is like I knew this with the air I was going to get fuck let's just not how it works every year it's a little bit more off a little bit more off and if you get an explanation as to why it's off like a specific explanation
[26:25] SPEAKER_00: and that's great you can evaluate it but when I'm being told you know it's proprietary and we don't have to disclose things to you that's okay but I think that should be shared a little bit more the idea that these products being a black box or you have no control
[26:41] SPEAKER_00: these things are pitched as full control so I just think these products should be sold honestly because we already had this mistake in my in our industry with regards to the vanishing premium litigation and the last thing I wanted that to happen again
[26:55] SPEAKER_00: sadly this time around it's the advisors who are making the claims these generally aren't supported by the insurance company like I've never seen an ad saying you know ex life insurance co
[27:06] SPEAKER_00: we love the beyond banking concept like it doesn't happen it's not out there at all it's by design these companies aren't stupid you know they know that I believe it's a little bit
[27:17] SPEAKER_00: conspiracy theory here but I genuinely believe that they know that these claims are off but then again they're not supporting them
[27:24] SPEAKER_00: it's the advisor who's pushing them and they're the ones that are going to have to deal with the issues in the future now maybe there won't be issues maybe
[27:32] SPEAKER_00: because of the changes maybe because of interest rates dividends will be exactly as advertised and that's what I'm hoping for because I still have a few of these policies on the books I sold before I kind of went down this path
[27:44] SPEAKER_00: but even if they are on point and even if you're getting exactly what you were promised you were going to get I still think they owe you that transparency
[27:54] SPEAKER_01: yeah I um I think it's a really
[28:01] SPEAKER_01: wonderful thing that you took the time to write this book to help educate people because that combination of
[28:11] SPEAKER_01: things not being presented
[28:14] SPEAKER_01: clearly maybe right there's not a lot of clarity in what's being presented it's it's whether it's
[28:20] SPEAKER_01: intentionally dishonest is not the point or say right it's more than it's it's more that it's not clear and they're not
[28:29] SPEAKER_01: sharing all the information if that's happening on the industry side then the more
[28:35] SPEAKER_01: individuals that can actually
[28:38] SPEAKER_01: you know ask different questions or have this knowledge to say maybe this isn't the thing for me from the
[28:45] SPEAKER_01: Gecko that's that that's extremely powerful and I think it's really great that you spend the time to write this and put that
[28:52] SPEAKER_01: information out there because you don't know what you don't know and let's be honest most people the general
[28:59] SPEAKER_01: public no offense the general public is not extremely financially literate to even know what to ask
[29:07] SPEAKER_00: it's so fun you meant to financial literacy because like people like oh we need people to be more
[29:12] SPEAKER_00: financially literate and I'm like well like they're okay what does that mean you know like who is
[29:19] SPEAKER_00: who's also teaching this literacy like who do we take that information from a lot of people saying
[29:24] SPEAKER_00: a financial literacy needs to be taught more in schools well like I don't know if I want government
[29:28] SPEAKER_00: sponsored financial literacy given what's going on in the world you know we're printing money left
[29:33] SPEAKER_00: right in center it's driving up the cost of everything meanwhile the stock market and the housing
[29:39] SPEAKER_00: market isn't tied to consumer price index so I believe the way we evaluate money finance and growth
[29:47] SPEAKER_00: is completely off because we're not basing it on the right metrics do we want these people
[29:52] SPEAKER_00: teaching my kids about financial literacy look at health there's a lot of education in health I
[29:57] SPEAKER_00: don't think that we necessarily have a healthier you know country you know so just because you just
[30:04] SPEAKER_00: because you say oh people need to be more financially literate yeah I agree but the problem is a
[30:09] SPEAKER_00: lot of the financial literacy comes from these large-faced financial institutions that
[30:16] SPEAKER_00: are there to sell your products they're not there to help you now should they sell your products of
[30:21] SPEAKER_00: course like like but they're not they're not charities you know they are for profit organizations
[30:29] SPEAKER_00: that are trying to value drive value for their shareholders you know so I look at money as
[30:35] SPEAKER_00: a medium as a tool and it's like a tool you need to learn how to work and how do you learn how to
[30:40] SPEAKER_00: work at work you take a pile of it and you fuck up with it that's what I genuinely believe you open
[30:45] SPEAKER_00: a trading account and you buy something and then you sell it and you're like how did that happen
[30:49] SPEAKER_00: and then you you follow that stock on your app and you're like oh went up today why oh went down
[30:54] SPEAKER_00: today why and then you partner up with your friend to buy that house and rent it out then you
[30:59] SPEAKER_00: you try to go to the bank and buy a bond or you buy the chair I see you you work with this stuff
[31:03] SPEAKER_00: and then eventually over it by over 10 years you kind of get a feel for things and you eventually
[31:08] SPEAKER_00: start to maybe be able to kind of predict things and see trends and then you actually feel like
[31:14] SPEAKER_00: you're informed and then you feel comfortable asking questions a lot of people who buy these products
[31:19] SPEAKER_00: they buy from the people that they trust with their finances and they're afraid to ask questions
[31:26] SPEAKER_00: because they don't have the knowledge and they're like oh this person's happy has a knowledge and
[31:32] SPEAKER_00: I don't they're going to think like I'm that I'm such an idiot asking this question I trust them
[31:38] SPEAKER_00: I'll do it and that's that's the pro that's the irony of this product it sold as something for
[31:43] SPEAKER_00: the financially literate meanwhile it's really actually designed for I believe the financially
[31:50] SPEAKER_00: illiterate like I've met people that are putting enough money into these things that they could buy
[31:56] SPEAKER_00: a second house with like that's that's an investment that's an asset you know not this is
[32:02] SPEAKER_00: this is a bail you got to spend it every month there it goes by the wayside yeah and I think it's
[32:08] SPEAKER_01: it's a it's a really interesting point and I agree with you I don't know that
[32:16] SPEAKER_01: it is maybe I mean I don't know who should be teaching financial literacy per se I think it's
[32:22] SPEAKER_01: one of those things that we always need to question the source of information and if they are
[32:29] SPEAKER_01: everyone is biased in their own way but where their biases may or may not lie and find various
[32:35] SPEAKER_01: sources of information at the end of the day a lot of it comes down to critical thinking if you
[32:41] SPEAKER_01: can assess these things then you are on your way to being more financially literate however you
[32:48] SPEAKER_01: wanted to find that and wherever the information comes from because you're actually thinking about them
[32:53] SPEAKER_01: in an as unbiased away as possible we're asking the questions to find that out
[32:58] SPEAKER_00: yeah and to do it yourself like symbols at there's in the with the internet you can literally
[33:03] SPEAKER_00: do anything you want I have a friend of mine who used to be a truck driver and started doing
[33:11] SPEAKER_00: home rannos because he started watching videos on youtube and it was a handy guy like I was going to
[33:17] SPEAKER_00: break my hand if I tried to do that I'm just not coordinated enough in that sense but the fact that
[33:22] SPEAKER_00: you learned how to like flip five or six houses now just by starting to learn how to
[33:27] SPEAKER_00: lay drywall through youtube videos like that's nuts the amount of information on youtube about
[33:32] SPEAKER_00: like stocks and investing and trading or interest it's crazy like with a thousand dollars the amount
[33:39] SPEAKER_00: of practical education that you could get on your own and get a feel for financial instruments
[33:44] SPEAKER_00: it's just crazy you know it's really it's really it's a wonderful thing it's a wonderful thing
[33:49] SPEAKER_00: and that's kind of going back to this whole concept that's why it's harder with insurance because
[33:53] SPEAKER_00: the insurance part of the financial services industry is less accessible from that sense you kind
[33:59] SPEAKER_00: of have to go through brokers it's not like anyone to log in onto in a manualized site and run
[34:04] SPEAKER_00: culture themselves it's it's hard you need to contract with them and have a license and they
[34:09] SPEAKER_00: keep tabs on that as they should you know it's their software but it's less accessible and people
[34:14] SPEAKER_00: they'll need to go through brokers for that so part of the industry is moving into that digital realm
[34:20] SPEAKER_00: but as I said there's not enough discussion in and around what was done in the 70s and 80s and
[34:27] SPEAKER_00: therefore what you should do now and and that's okay I don't mind at the insurance I wish the
[34:32] SPEAKER_00: insurance companies would be a little bit forthcoming about what happened and what they're doing
[34:35] SPEAKER_00: now that's a little bit different maybe if specific questions were asked you know that would
[34:41] SPEAKER_00: come up but they always say the same thing the conservative approach conservative approach
[34:45] SPEAKER_00: would be more conservative about it and I believe that they are at the end of the day the only
[34:49] SPEAKER_00: reason that these products are still sold so much is because people who have the
[34:54] SPEAKER_00: are getting dividends I'm getting dividends from my kids policies they're great I don't deny
[34:59] SPEAKER_00: that they're not great it's just that I think it's important to tell people what is happening
[35:06] SPEAKER_00: and what isn't happening and people shouldn't buy into things based on these assumptions that are
[35:14] SPEAKER_01: not tied through reality at all um I want to thank you for taking the time to chat with me a day
[35:21] SPEAKER_01: and to share all this information it's been really I need to thank you that you're giving me you're
[35:26] SPEAKER_00: giving me the opportunity to chat here it's not thank you seriously um is is there you know before I
[35:31] SPEAKER_01: tell people where they can find your ebook which I will do is there anything that we didn't get to
[35:36] SPEAKER_01: or that you really want to emphasize as part of this conversation I think I think I emphasize
[35:42] SPEAKER_00: that you know the one thing I'll say is I'm comfortably uncomfortable in my own finances because
[35:52] SPEAKER_00: I've been willing to do it for myself whether it's stocks made money and lost money buying and selling
[36:02] SPEAKER_00: a stock whether it's you know investing in a mortgage that I've done on my own talk to the lawyer
[36:08] SPEAKER_00: whether it's enforcing an mortgage I've done on my own talking to the borrower these financial
[36:13] SPEAKER_00: instruments start to get less complicated if you're willing to get your hands dirty a little bit and
[36:23] SPEAKER_00: you'll probably go down a rabbit hole and it'll make you angry but at least you'll get a feel for
[36:28] SPEAKER_00: kind of how the world works and so you can't change the world I feel like you just need to learn how
[36:35] SPEAKER_00: to operate within it and if you can be real real comfortable understanding how the world works and
[36:40] SPEAKER_00: how financial services world works you'll just be able to approach things much better you'll have a
[36:47] SPEAKER_00: lot more fun meeting with people you'll be more informed and you'll eventually find and surround
[36:52] SPEAKER_00: yourself with people with the same interests that you can grow your money in ways that actually
[36:59] SPEAKER_00: works for you and doesn't just prop up the traditional financial services industry that's designed
[37:05] SPEAKER_00: to make commissions and sell products to you not actually help you make money that's so that's my
[37:11] SPEAKER_00: by one takeaway get your hands dirty do your own thing you know it's a great takeaway um
[37:18] SPEAKER_01: we're gonna have links for how people can reach you where to find you online in the show notes
[37:24] SPEAKER_01: but the book specifically is that fortune or fiction dot c a yeah fortune or fiction dot c a
[37:31] SPEAKER_01: exact and I highly recommend that all of the listeners and viewers of this go and check it out
[37:36] SPEAKER_01: it's really it's a really valuable resource um and thank you again Adam for taking the time
[37:42] SPEAKER_01: to share with us and explain some of these pieces that I think people think are really
[37:47] SPEAKER_01: complicated or maybe don't even they wouldn't even know to ask about this going into these
[37:50] SPEAKER_01: conversations so thank you so much for sharing it's really valuable in your story uh in and of
[37:55] SPEAKER_01: itself to get here was super interesting so very much appreciated oh did oh thanks for
[38:01] SPEAKER_01: all for having me thank you so much absolutely and for those who are listening are watching thank you
[38:06] SPEAKER_01: for listening to Candace podcast like comment and subscribe to all our channels to get the latest
[38:10] SPEAKER_01: podcast from entrepreneurs across Canada